gender roles and gender identity were also fine as they were. if we remove religion. the only change that should happen is that...
i replied to your post, because that law directly effects people who prefer gender roles and want to express their opinion
but i guess you meant the natural change of shifting peoples general opinion about gender roles, not making a big deal out of it like a lot of people seem to do now.
And... this is because of the established gender binary? Self discovery should be a lengthy journey, not a textbook answer that might not fit in spite of it.
I'd also hardly call freedom of the self Chaos, and peer pressures in such a setting will still exist for areas like "Success" instead of "Identity".
haart stated: source post
Virus stated: source post
this modern society has "people" upside down to the point they can live like a 4 year old, or a dog, or friggin coffee pot if they want to and should you speak about it you are a judgmental racist, animal hating, coffee pot smashing, bigot!
That's a very dramatic hyperbole. Have you met many people living as coffee pots?
Not coffee pots, no... adult humans as pets and children... yes
When I see this argument, it reeks of "fear of change", fear of where you might fit into a society that allowed people to live as they please. What does it matter to you if someone wants to wear a dress and call themselves Samantha? How does that impact your life?
I am cool with change... and as long as you are not getting any of you on me... or me on you... sure... live and let live. Just don't complain when shit is all fucked up, when you are letting shit get all fucked up...
Bring on the Zombie Apocalypse!
Of course, you ought to be able to voice a critical opinion. But... you are voicing a critical opinion... And no one is calling you a bigot?
What's more, your right to voice an opinion is equal to that of another. You say nigger, they say racist. That's two opinions being voiced. Where's the problem?
I haven't been called bigot here... no... sorry to misdirect anger to this forum... ty, haart...
No problem, I think there never really was one...
gender roles and gender identity were also fine as they were. if we remove religion. the only change that should happen is that...
"Fine as they were" is quite subjective, wouldn't you say? And different across societies and cultures. I'm fine as a biological female in Western society. I'd be much, much less fine fulfilling the role of a woman in Saudi Arabia. That's where I think we may agree about religion.
i replied to your post, because that law directly effects people who prefer gender roles and want to express their opinion
Correct. And I think it's a troubling law. Different sort of conversation, though.
but i guess you meant the natural change of shifting peoples general opinion about gender roles, not making a big deal out of it like a lot of people seem to do now.
Exactly. I don't think it's a particularly big deal.
Turncoat stated: source post
And... this is because of the established gender binary? Self discovery should be a lengthy journey, not a textbook answer that might not fit in spite of it.
I'd also hardly call freedom of the self Chaos, and peer pressures in such a setting will still exist for areas like "Success" instead of "Identity".
Not just the established gender binary, a general standard of accepted behavior, in which gender binary plays a role in.
Absolute freedom is Chaos. Identity should be private(for the most part), but morals not. I do not think peer pressure pressures enough to stop someone's true identity coming out. Not in my generation. And i think peer pressure should exist, to force people into taking responsibility.
Virus stated: source post
haart stated: source post
Virus stated: source post
this modern society has "people" upside down to the point they can live like a 4 year old, or a dog, or friggin coffee pot if they want to and should you speak about it you are a judgmental racist, animal hating, coffee pot smashing, bigot!
That's a very dramatic hyperbole. Have you met many people living as coffee pots?
Not coffee pots, no... adult humans as pets and children... yes
When I see this argument, it reeks of "fear of change", fear of where you might fit into a society that allowed people to live as they please. What does it matter to you if someone wants to wear a dress and call themselves Samantha? How does that impact your life?
I am cool with change... and as long as you are not getting any of you on me... or me on you... sure... live and let live. Just don't complain when shit is all fucked up, when you are letting shit get all fucked up...
Bring on the Zombie Apocalypse!
Of course, you ought to be able to voice a critical opinion. But... you are voicing a critical opinion... And no one is calling you a bigot?
What's more, your right to voice an opinion is equal to that of another. You say nigger, they say racist. That's two opinions being voiced. Where's the problem?
I haven't been called bigot here... no... sorry to misdirect anger to this forum... ty, haart...
No problem, I think there never really was one...
Seems we have more in common than not, on this issue. Good to know :P
And if the Zombie Apocalypse is brought about by furries, adults in diapers and the transgendered, I will be sure to bite my tongue at any niggling compulsion to complain.
Virus stated: source post
where we seem to differ is whether those expectations were/are good or not...
They aren't, they're quite oppressive. It's using commonality through social constructs and what few areas actually differ like testosterone levels to try to blanket how everyone should be.
Whoa... but you says this...
and can those expectations still work in this modern society?
It can as long as it's self-imposed
That is exactly what I am suggesting... why did men stop being men? And I don't care if the image is Carey Grant, John Wayne, Sir Lancelot, or Magnum PI, or Jesus... they all took care of business and were respectful to man, woman, and child...
Mostly saying, if who you are as a person is the mold, then power to them, but there shouldn't have to be an established norm for identity nor should people be pressured to become it just because "that's normal".
Men stopped "being men" as strongly because of the expectation gradually fading. As it becomes less oppressive, we'll see even less of it overtime, especially as manly women and womanly men start breeding and presenting different values. As values become less streamlined as well, they'll be able to see a vast variety of perspectives instead of having an entire classroom of students be surprised about a kid being raised by a "Stay At Home Dad".
I'm sure part of it's also from it looking "Less PC", that being "too manly" or being "a woman" to many is seen as pushing the paradigm, but that's just as bad as telling those who aren't the mold that they're wrong.
Being yourself's thankfully spreading more and more with each coming generation. I for one welcome this sort of progression, as long as it's not people professing how they're actually animals born in human form or psy-vampires. As freedom to be as you are instead of how society expects you to be spreads, we'll likely see more gray area surface from the lack of expectations molding people into uniform traits.Slippery fucking slope...
How so?
Discussing Syst and discussing gender expectations, while interrelated, is really discussing two topics at once. While the expectations are harmful as a whole, in his case it's all the other baggage that's connected to it that makes for a unique expression.
Again, "core value" to him means "need", and I know he can take this sort of talking both from past discussions with him and through how open he allows himself to be on this forum. They are inherently negative, and the costs attached in his case hurt him.And how is allowing him his need when it isn't destructive any different than what was discussed earlier?
His expression of it's potentially self-destructive in his case. He carries more weight than he needs to, and from time to time it shows. 
He's a prime example for the belief that men have shorter lifespans from these sorts of pressures. I honestly think he would benefit from finding someone he could see as a legitimate equal as opposed to someone who fits the expectation of what gender is supposed to be. When needs become too much, they take over.
I never figured you to be this sexist. Not meaning it as a point of offense, but maybe it has to do with your age?
More to do with Core values... and not being swayed by public opinion... I admire a strong woman, and truly believe her to be the apex predator... sexist? Real...
How is a strong woman stronger than a strong man?
Age Play, Otherkin, and... err... breakfast roleplay(?) are a bit different than what we're discussing. I'm not even going into gender bending surgery, but instead about embracing who you are as you are as opposed to feeling pressured to appear within a series of expectations. As long as it's causing no harm, we should be able to be ourselves.
Hence, Syst's needs being what they may... you're mother hen-ing a little, no?
I worry about him sometimes. It's hard not to after so much time together. I know he does the same about me.
No, they can be whatever is natural for them, whatever works, whatever invites success into their lives. I can be "the woman" (the bottom) in a relationship
WHAT? And I am sexist...
I was appropriating typical language, hence the quotes. 
I do very much so see myself as the synergist of those I'm dating. I want their lives to thrive as an extension of them as opposed to the usual "Woman behind every man" idea.
with the only real problem following being some weird looks from time to time from people who carry outdated sexist values.
Oh... my... Gawd... You can not really care what people think of you if you are a MAN taking care of your responsibilities...
I can actually, and do. Does that make me less of a MAN in your eyes?
Every time that someone throws shit at me like "be a man" or "don't be such a woman", it's subtly and sociologically offensive, even more so if they are oblivious to the harm of it. It's not that my not being manly is a problem, but people expecting me to be anything but myself is. It's a grating, lifelong thing that will continue to follow me, and it was truly liberating to escape that once I went to college, once I was able to stretch my metaphorical wings and find that I could be me instead of "one of the guys" without being called "gay" or "girly" over having interests in things like theater, fashion, and dance.
I like the freedom to be me, and others ought to be given the same graces before they turn 18. I'm truly lucky that my life at home didn't carry the same subtle social oppressions.
but I think you may have some deep seeded insecurities to deal with in order to live up to being the true "Man of the House"... whatever that may mean.
As seen above, I do. They aren't that deep, I'm completely aware of their existence, but attaching anything as "what a man does" or "what a woman does" damages those who aren't that. It should be insulting that Manliness vs Womanhood translate to strong and stoic versus weak and emotional, as it pressures one side while devaluing the other.
Why even call it "Man of the House" at this point? It's both insulting and antiquated. Calling someone a "Woman of the House" shows how this applies.
I am Mom and Dad right now... just to remind you of perspective... and I do get some weird looks... fuck em.
I hope to be a stay at home dad for the first years of a kid's life some day. With this economy I'm doubting that liklihood, but a job I can do on the computer at home paired with insomnia I'm hoping will be enough when the time comes.
Fuck 'em indeed.
Again, you might be too close to properly motivate Syst... just sayin... NOT sayin I can...
I would have imagined the opposite. Those close to someone are the ones who see more and carry more weight with their words.
To his credit though, he does respond to those close to him as well as those who aren't. Those who aren't close he takes as an objective perspective based on his outer presentation, while those close to him he figures might be seeing things those far away might not.
Interesting thread....lol...
TFI: People need order to function efficiently. And the best order is a standard to follow. Only those that truly know themselves can break the standard against the odds, the rest are nothing but lost souls. Peer pressure should exist, but to an extend, while laws must be objective. Peer pressure is the obstacle you should be able to pass, if you truly believe in yourself and who you are. And you do not live alone on this planet, other people have sensibilities too, you should respect them(to a reasonable extend). A 'standard to follow' is the general sensibility people have: its the most efficient.
Agree with TFI ...again...
Natural order ...in a world where men are men and women, women....there will be some of the mentally ill variety that haven't a fkng clue that their gender was determined at birth...there are only TWO. Male and Female...'gender binary' is Reality...FFS. There are 'mental health sites with26 fking genders to choose from based on 'how you choose to identify'....LOL....and Australia has been badly infected with this garbage...I was surprised to see that.
From TC:
Being yourself's thankfully spreading more and more with each coming generation. I for one welcome this sort of progression, as long as it's not people professing how they're actually animals born in human form or psy-vampires. As freedom to be as you are instead of how society expects you to be spreads, we'll likely see more gray area surface from the lack of expectations molding people into uniform traits.
Being yourself has interesting ramifications when you are start including the mentally ill/ Personality disordered....so...there needs to exist a line in the sand somewhere....or we are going to have more otherkin bursting out of the internet and into legislation and Social Justice Warturds squacking at "microaggressions' and telling me how I am to 'feel' about their bullshit.....which is not going to work...lol...at. all.
Also the blatant idiocy of Feminism, needs a clean up....I read some mentally retarded garbage from a Doktor that babbled about her huge titties making it harder for her to conduct surgery...lol....but she was clearly delusional...
TFI: Absolute freedom is Chaos. Identity should be private(for the most part), but morals not. I do not think peer pressure pressures enough to stop someone's true identity coming out. Not in my generation. And i think peer pressure should exist, to force people into taking responsibility.
Absolute freedom is chaos, but that can also be a state of mind, so it will depend on checks balance whether they are externally or internally imposed. Based on the current ad nauseum of the question of 'binary" ( this is not a fking question you menally ill morons! It is a goddamn Fact. ) We get all sorts of 'gender wars' sprouting where none need exist....and interestingly enough...it is more so in the PDd than anywhere else...
ThenFuckit stated: source post
Turncoat stated: source post
And... this is because of the established gender binary? Self discovery should be a lengthy journey, not a textbook answer that might not fit in spite of it.
I'd also hardly call freedom of the self Chaos, and peer pressures in such a setting will still exist for areas like "Success" instead of "Identity".Not just the established gender binary, a general standard of accepted behavior, in which gender binary plays a role in.
Why does the gender binary have to be within "general standards of accepted behavior"? Do you expect murder and theft to rise from people no longer prescribing to the genitalic fate? That's crazy.
Absolute freedom is Chaos.
How is freedom of identity "Absolute freedom"? It's just one part of it.
Identity should be private(for the most part), but morals not.
Why should identity be private? Social media and the internet in general is showing a thriving from the opposite idea.
It can be nice to find others who identify similarly to yourself, and hiding that could mean potentially not finding them.
I do not think peer pressure pressures enough to stop someone's true identity coming out. Not in my generation.
You won't know what could have been if they were given those freedoms, nor how comfortable they are or aren't with themselves from feeling like it has to be a battle.
Peer pressure is quite indoctrinating.
And i think peer pressure should exist, to force people into taking responsibility.
Go on?
haart stated: source post
And if the Zombie Apocalypse is brought about by furries, adults in diapers and the transgendered, I will be sure to bite my tongue at any niggling compulsion to complain.
Pfff, that'd be purely coincidental.
As much as I love thinking about a Furry Zombie Apocalypse, part of the imagination for that's been stolen from me from it being somewhat of a thing already: 
I get how people can develop "Fursonas" they identify with, but I struggle to understand how they can identify with anthro-animal corpses.
Peer pressure is quite indoctrinating.
You missed the point on Responsibility for you actions..if you want to dress up in a fox costume, call yourself otherkin and expect the rest of the world to agree that you are not fking nuts, then that is Mental Illness leading the way....which is fking nuts.
And if you are too stupid and easily led by bullshit....which many are....but also refuse to accept the consequences of their actions, or the stares and laughter at the fuckedupedness....guess what? The bullshit gets legislated into reality and more of the same breeds...lol...so....
Your 'private/personal' fetish ...is yours...fine, as ludicrous as it may be...but don't demand that everyone else HAS to tolerate nor accept it,. when it is clearly a product of mental illness. Tranny bullshit in particular, of the gender dysphoria springs to mind....
Much of the social justice warturd territory stomps about in the realm of 'feelings' and lack of acceptance and validation for the special snowflake syndrome which is then wrapped up into a flag of utter bs and sold under the banner of bigot. And the bottom line is that 'validation' of the demented perspective is being legally enforced as Valid....when it is clearly bullshit. That IS insanity....lol....and that is buttered up, sold and purchased based on empathy for "emotional pain." How ridiculous is that?