by Turncoat
T1. Well yeah, we all should have the right to say what we want. It's what we do with that right that shows who we are.
E1. Yes, so I try using words to seek resolution. Thanks for your posts in that direction also, and I hope your help is enough to resolve things with TK and Ana as well. if you can see my posts to TK getting shorter and to the point, that was your influence by explaining that we are "not like each other". so all my posts are now written from that viewpoint.
thanks Turncoat you were the most helpful, and now I think I can reach understanding with others when they see I prefer understanding
T2. They're playing the role of offense. That only serves to harm their character if it doesn't affect you, and even more so if you turn the tables effectively. If it does affect you, and they seem indifferent instead of aggressive, then they are the one who is, in a sense, "winning". You're playing their game.
E2. I think it is something with this forum environment. Spatial coming across totally opposite from his intentions, and I could see his words betray his intent. I don't think I can blame Ana and TK for that either when for all they know I look exactly as they believe. Not their fault.
So no, I don't mean to play the same blame game. You are right, I should not get caught in that mistake that trapped Ed and Spatial too.
Thanks TC I get what you are saying but in a different way than you
T3.
No one here thinks you're actually in charge. It's closer to them assuming you want to be, or feel you ought to be, from your butting into others affairs and pushing for structure in a manner that makes you appear somewhat forceful.
E3. Great, I hope this problem ends then. And to be fair, if they see me as butting into affairs, then they could be seen as butting in here and starting on me in the middle of Clue's thread. if that is considered fair game, then it's fair game for me to exercise free speech too.
If Clue wants all this off her thread, i will delete my msgs. If she sees at least this is doing some good to hash out other issues, too, as long as she agrees to it, I'm okay too. but I consider this Clue's discretion.
T5. It is, but it's also you trying to insist people change their behavior. You seem to not like how others are trying to change your behavior, why should they like it when you try to change theirs?
E5. Where did I insist other people change their behavior? On this thread, I was just responding to people criticizing mine and then "claiming they didn't want to resolve it" So now I ask if they don't want to resolve it, don't post issues publicly if they don't want me to try to resolve it. I am asking them. It's their choice, not mine.
T6. I know, it's easy to respond to this with "But they do it too!", but this isn't about them right now, and focusing on them won't amount to anything but additional aggression and feeling the need to "even the score", or act out because "it's okay when [name] does this, but not me?".
E6. The difference TC is that I am asking for the sake of resolution, not fighting. So again, I am just asking to be consistent, not to blame.
T7. RE: "So as long as both sides are seen as being equally free to say things and to respond then we are square. But not criticizing me more than them for our differences."
Criticism is a part of free speech. It happens.
E7. Again the difference is criticism for the sake of correcting the problem, vs criticism to discredit the person being blamed. Big difference. TC do you see the difference between your constructive criticisms here vs. Ana's one way projections onto me as the problem?
Big difference, that is why you are being effective and she is not.
T8.
Since when did this place have to be about truth, fairness, or reciprocity? Who here hasn't been accused of something?
E8. If people want to continue the same, they are free to continue this with people who want to continue the same. that is one choice.
With me, I do NOT consent to continue the same. So either we agree not to post things if they don't want to resolve them. or we do agree to resolve them, as you and I are working through them here.
they have a choice. I can ask but can't insist if they want to continue.
T9. It still strikes me as unnatural when you try to be sarcastic. It's like the "trying" is stronger than the "sarcasm". Just my view though.
E9. I do have some kind of sarcastic humor from my dad. my mom does not understand this and my sister was very serious all the time. so my brother and I would tease her and laugh when she didn't get it.
There were plenty of times I would joke about things other people thought were weird and not funny. On here, one person even thought it was funny when I was really being serious. Similarly I could see the humor in Luna saying she wanted people to "bond" and the reaction was almost like WTF you think any of us want to bond? that kind of conflicting response when someone is idealistic like me, and other people don't get it and thinks we're out of our heads, comes across as funny to me. a lot of my sarcasm and spoofs plays on that tension
T10. Why do you need to be able to talk to her in any sort of proper fashion? Does her opinion matter strongly enough to you for you to bother adjusting your own behaviors?
E10. Yes, with each person, our relationship is unique to us. it tends to stretch both people in trying to adapt to the other, until we meet in the middle. when this is done right, both people overcome problems so the benefits are mutual. TK and you both influence me, for example, to say things differently in order to make sense and communicate what I mean and don't mean. or we'd go back and forth getting nowhere
In exchange your perception of me can grow to understand other people like, who don't think the same way you do. so it helps others.
T11: People (who bother to read what you say anyway) I think understand you fairly well. I'd argue it's that you're not fully understanding why they'd respond to you in the way they are that's throwing you off.
E11: Yes, I do not understand. And they also assume they are right about me, too. And don't get for one second they could be wrong. It is mutual. I don't think it's their fault. Of course they don't know me. I'm just trying to resolve as much as I can. thanks for your help.
T12: How much experience do you have with darker humor?
E12: I've collected my political satires on my website since 1997. But even my meanest spoofs tends to seek a happy ending. Most of mine are funny, written to inspire solutions, not depression or hopelessness.
here is one of the worst examples: http://www.julietandromeo.net
SW is the most experience I've gotten being immersed in this kind of environment. After I started interacting on this site, I wrote stories with darker themes and endings. Not usually my style, but people liked it more than my other stories, so it hits the mainstream better I think. to have a little more edge and realism than my usual idealistic spoofs.
T13
Your defensive corrections aren't really impositions, they just show where you're vulnerable. The times your corrections are imposing is when you try to alter how others behave without their consent for mediation. The difference here is you aren't imposing when the topic actually has something to do with you.
E13. I don't get what is the issue with being vulnerable. I am more concerned with being consistent. and if people cared about the topic having to do with the person, those posts don't belong on Clue's thread
T14. Free speech means letting people say what they want, even if you find it hurtful or moronic. You can choose to stoop to their level, or you can be above it. Sometimes, feeling the need to defend yourself only shows others that you feel that need. If it was something you didn't believe at least on some level, why would you work so hard to oppose it instead of let it pass as ridiculous through example?
E14. a. because it kept happening over and over so why not fix it
b. there is a difference between saying something stupid and falsely misstating someone's intentions where that is misrepresentation.
c. there is nothing wrong with using free speech to correct either a or b
if you say they have the right to use free speech to misrepresent me, surely I have equal right to use free speech to correct the problem
T15.
You have the right, but how you use that right is just as important as the right itself. The right to free speech is also an invitation to the right to say anything in any way, but just because you're free to say it doesn't mean you won't sometimes put your foot in your mouth, and doesn't mean that they aren't free to respond as they please.
E15. and likewise I can go back and make more corrections too by free speech until the root issue is resolved and anything else related
thanks again TC this really is helping sorry it is on the wrong thread?
T16. How seriously you're taking this only invites them to do it more. You've shown it affects you, which shows they can tweak you with that knowledge.
E16. I think you are helping resolve it. so it will not be such an issue.
T17.
"I'd rather resolve that misperception than watch people suffer for it."
Suffer? 
E17. yes they do not like this resolution process. so the sooner we resolve this, we don't have to suffer through this again.
T18. Control isn't only done with bad intent you know. Sometimes it's the best of intentions, working toward a greater good, or even going as far as Utopia Justifies the Means that can lead to worse outcomes than those who are out to do damage from the beginning. It is still a "control game" I'd argue, just not one played by a master manipulator, but rather, by someone who is simply overly insistent. The less you poke at the hornet's nest, the less likely you are to be stung, even if the hornet started it by stinging you first.
E18. I believe in consensus which can only be reached freely and cannot be forced or it isn't truly consent.
so anything other than free will to me has other intent attached.
even if there is a greater goal, the point is to form an agreement freely by consent. pushing it by control or force defeats any good
T19
My feelings on this place lately: The most damage seems to occur here when someone feels entitled to something. Beyond being entitled to say whatever the hell we want, what else are we really entitled to? So what if someone doesn't apologize? So what if some people don't like each other? So what if you happen to form your own rogue's gallery for behaving as you would?
E19 all we can do is correct ourselves and apologize if we misjudge.
as I stated before I am sorry I previously misjudged you as not wanting to resolve anything when you alone have taken this much effort.
so all I can do is apologize to you and thank you for your help. I can't control how anyone else will or will not respond, just how I do.
if people don't like each other, and can't wont or don't want to resolve issues, they can either agree to drop it, or resolve it by email or PM, if they don't want to "continue" posting jabs back and forth on threads.
whichever way they end up doing it, the conflict still exists until it is resolved one way or another. I just choose to resolve things because i find it benefits all the people, stops imposition on others, and attracts more constructive sharing in general between forum members.
thanks for your help with this turncoat! and, in turn, may it benefit others equally besides just me. yours truly, Emily
