Excuse you?
I am very articulate. :P
"Her criticism seemed to go beyond body hair."
Perhaps you should rely less on how things seem to you. : P
"(And even so, a woman with a moustache or unibrow would pretty much be a pariah in western society outside the circus.)"
Wow, you really are dramatic. xD
"You give Angee that much intellectual credit? : P"
I was kinda offended by this. Just because I don't feel the need to be a keyboard brain warrior you think I'm incapable of reasoning or understanding. And from only few nonsensical posts, which you took way more seriously than I did.
One more thing. Do you shave?
"Those aren't standards though, but lack of standards..."
That's exactly what I've been saying, Ed. : P When I first suggested a double standard at play, you argued that it's fair for men to expect women to shave, just as it's fair for women to expect men not to wear makeup. It was an illogical comparison for the exact reason that you just stated.
"How do you think the huge majority of men just arbitrarily decided upon a standard of beauty? Lmao."
That's how societal brainwashing works. : / An idea spreads, is reinforced through media, and after a long enough time of adjustment is accepted as the way of the world. And it was decided on by men. Not all men, but men solely. Please reread the "history lesson", if you don't know to what I'm referring.
"I can't see it being arbitrary at all. Men have always been attracted to women who looked best suited for child bearing. Hormones like estrogen make the skin smooth and hairless. Big breasts/hips are associated with motherly qualities (milk supply, womb space)."
Yes, but if a woman is born with small breasts, does that make her unnatural? A "pariah" as you put it? Do you think women with small breasts should have surgery simply to uphold your standards of sexual attractiveness?
"About unfair double standards, I completely agree with what Freyja said. Ofc different genders find different qualities attractive."
Did I say otherwise?
"What, you expect men to have breast implants now?"
I don't expect anything. That's the point. : P
"And again, I am talking about the norm, not the exceptions. Small dicks and balls are laughed at. Huge warts, crossed eyes and other disfigurements on men are being found repulsive, even if occurred "naturally", and not making the person unhealthy in any way."
First off, you summed things up quite nicely with the word "disfigurements". Disfigurements are unnatural. I'm not saying they don't occur naturally, simply that they're a genetic variation. Unlike body hair, which is a standard human feature. Humans are supposed to have body hair. Humans are not supposed to have crossed eyes. If this had started with you saying that you don't find crossed eyes attractive because they're unnatural, we'd be having a very different conversation.
However, this is mostly irrelevant. Let me clear something up right now, since everyone arguing with me on this thread seems to have read some things I never wrote. : P Such as "you're not allowed to find body hair on women unattractive", or "finding female body hair unattractive is unnatural", or "women should not remove their body hair". I have said none of these things, I have implied none of these things, and I have meant none of these things. I have been making two points. One is disputing the claim that body hair on women is "unnatural". The other is suggesting that men who feel that all women have an obligation to shave, are hypocrites. (Now before you misread any further, I'm not saying you feel all women are obligated to shave.)
Pointing out genetic reasons for finding such qualities attractive or unattractive, does not make the quality itself more or less natural. It's a valid argument for why your attraction is natural. Not an argument for why the object of your attraction is natural.
Nor does it make the imposition of such an attraction less of a double standard. Hypocrisy is simple. An expectation placed on one party, by another party who does not adhere to equal standards. That's what this is. You're free to like what you like, but if you demand this of a female (rather than requesting it), without reciprocation, that is hypocrisy. And if both you and she are fine with that, mozel tov.
"Yet you admit women do ask esthetic stuff from their men. Suddenly the double standard isn't so double anymore, is it."
It is, actually.
A) I never said that women were innocent of double standards. (I believe you're making assumptions because you feel that I'm attacking your gender. Which I'm not. I'm attacking faulty logic.)
B) Expecting someone to shave for you, if they expect you to shave for them and you concede, is not a double standard. It's equal.
C) Asking and expecting are not the same thing.
"huge biased history lesson"
Biased? How so? Bias would involve intentional omission of relevant facts, so as to give a particular false impression. Like trying to portray motorcycles as dangerous by saying "65% of all vehicle-related deaths in Cambodia involve motorcycles", but omitting the statistic that 83% of all vehicles in Cambodia are motorcycles. That is bias. My point was that the removal of body hair is a recent fad. What relevant information did I omit, so as to undermine the facts presented?
"No, hair is natural. So is fucking without a condom."
Thanks for the admission.
"Yeah, maybe you're right and women are required to take more care of their appearance than men. But that's in their fucking nature, more than it is in men's nature to ask for it."
Do you really want to bring the word "nature" into this again, Ed? Must we have the same debate all over again?
"I see them spending hours putting on make up, going shopping for clothes and cosmetics, to beauty parlors, hairdressers. They LOVE that shit."
So because they put in a lot of time, money, and effort, that invariably means they love it? And even the ones who do gets their kicks out of it, have you ever considered why that might be?
"You feel good when you look pretty and get the attention of men and out-beauty other women."
Wow, you're practically making my argument for me.
"Don't blame the whole stuff on men"
Exactly what is it that you think I'm blaming on men?
"the beauty industry is kept alive by women and your natural tendency to make yourself appealing"
Again, your use of this word "natural". Women are at a physical disadvantage against men. Making ourselves appealing roots from survivalism, in various forms throughout history. And the women who were the most successful in this are the ones who reproduced the most. In this culturally driven sense, I can see how you would interpret this as natural. But it is culturally driven. It's not biological. The gelatinous clumps of cells from which we rose, and many generations of human evolution onward, were not familiar with the concept of "primping". Just because societal programming is so old that it's affected our gene pool on mass, does not mean that it wasn't a force of society rather than of nature. Nor does the historical length and cultural/genetic depth of psychological programming excuse hypocrisy.
"and this has been going on since known history"
Maybe the history known to you. Damn Ed, read a book. : P
"from Cleopatra bathing in goat milk for smooth skin or whatever, and ancient beauty tricks and ointments used by women thousands and thousands of years ago. Did you even know that women used to drop belladonna (a poison) in their eyes to make themselves pretty even though it made them see badly and made light hurt their eyes? ("the name "bella donna" is derived from Italian and means "beautiful lady" because the herb was used in eye-drops by women to dilate the pupils of the eyes to make them appear seductive.")"
I did in fact know that. Are you suggesting that women should have to start blinding themselves again? XD
"So yeah, you have a problem with shaving/waxing"
Do I? My god, is anyone on this thread capable of reading a statement for what it is, without projecting imagined meanings onto it?
"fine, but most men (and women) like women that way. By not shaving you take the risk of being unnatractive, and you're free to do that."
Everyone is taking the risk of being unattractive to someone. We can't be everything everyone wants us to be.
"As a man, I am also free to choose a woman I find attractive, and I am not a fan of too much hair in certain places, like face and armpits. Luckily for me and most men, there's plenty of women willing to shave for us."
Lucky you, indeed. By all means, keep appreciating those women for what they do for you, rather than taking it for granted as an innate obligation of being female. Congrats on coming to that radical conclusion all on your own. : P
"Calm down love, no need to get that panty hair in a twist now"
Oh yes. Clearly I'm seething with rage at your intellectual superiority. : P
"Erm, that's basically the exact opposite of what I was saying."
No. You said that we're allowed our opinions and that being different is okay. But you made the case that our opinions are less valid, because we "don't speak for the majority" as you're putting it.
"Try using your brain, quitting that victim mentality and reading it again"
Contradicting the basis of your thought process is having a victim mentality?
"Not sure if trolling or retard... Seriously, I wrote my post v early in the morning with brain not engaged, but I'd still like to think I came off a tad more articulate than PINK ffs."
I'm sure you would like to think so, yes.
"And where did you get 'mentally ill' from? Random."
I quoted where I got it from. Use your brain and read it again?
"I completely disagree with this. I think Edvard covered it pretty well in his post. There are objective, scientific reasons as to why certain traits are more attractive than others, stuff that signifies eostrogen and testosterone and so on. This is stuff which is pretty much found in all cultures in various shapes and forms."
Just because something is more common or a certain preference has a cultural or genetic basis, does not make it singular and objective. The quality of attractiveness itself is to be appealing. Not appealing to the majority. Simply appealing. To anyone. Everything and anything is attractive to the right person. Because something is only attractive to a few people, doesn't mean it's objectively unattractive. Merely unpopular.
"And yes, people outside the US do shave thank you very much."
Yeah. That's... what I said. Repeatedly. Wow, you really do read like Pink. XD
"There are certain preferences we are hardwired to have, it's not to do with cultural pressure, it's biology."
I don't disagree. I'm not arguing that it's unnatural to find hairlessness on a female attractive. I'm arguing that hairlessness is not an innate aspect of being female. And that many men are holding women to a double standard.
"If you're immune to that then ok, good for you. I'm not saying it makes you abnormal"
That's actually exactly what you're saying. : P
"although you seem determined to be a victim or a special snowflake"
You seem determined to paint me that way.
"so i'm sure you'll interpret it as such nomatter what I say"
Well gee, if you're so sure, why am I even bothering to reply? >_>
"I'm just saying that you don't speak for the majority."
I agree. The majority can speak for themselves. : P
I don't think you're differentiating between being unintelligent and being incapable of reason or understanding. A very considerable difference. But I suppose you are prone to dramatics.
"I'm not going to argue semantics with someone who can't own up to their own behavior."
If it makes you feel better, I will reiterate that I do think you're stupid. : )
People respond to things they don't take seriously all the time. Relax Ginger Spice, it's just conversation. : P
"I gave you no evidence on which to assume that I think you're "incapable of reasoning or understanding""
Really? Because the only time you have spoken to me, you have insulted my intelligence. I can go back and quote it again if you need me to. I'm not going to argue semantics with someone who can't own up to their own behavior. Your remarks were interpreted the way you intended them to be interpreted. Obviously, I can't prove that, nor would I even attempt to prove it, when you can always just say, 'that's not how I meant it'.
or that I take anything you say seriously. : )
If you don't take anything I say seriously, then why are you bothering to 'correct' me, or even reply to my posts? Most people know not to take me seriously enough to even respond. It's all fun and games, until someone wants to be a right fighter, but carry on, you do it well.