"I'd go with what I felt comfortable with, regardless if it was fair or not."
So really, you're not holding her to societal standards, you're holding her to your standards. As long as you're aware of your hypocrisy, I have no objections. : P
"I've seen the appeal in not being as selfish since then haha"
Daw! >.< You're over your fear of female genetalia? You're growing as a person, Syst. <3
"As long as you're aware of your hypocrisy, I have no objections. : P"
Yep, fully.
"Daw! >.< You're over your fear of female genetalia? You're growing as a person, Syst. <3"
Yeah about that XD
I used to see that as something beneath me and that isn't the case now. I've been working on not being as rigid and I've made decent progress so far, which has lead to me not being as vanilla lol. If anything those restricting views on oral made me curious and I've worked up quite the appetite for it now : b
"Aren't all standards requiring work to fulfill?"
... No. Not shaving, not wearing makeup; these non-activities are not effort. : P
"If you have a problem with working for a standard, then you have a problem with all forms of holding to a standard, which I think it's wrong."
I have no problem with standards. It's the nature of a standard. This is double standard, that is psychologically imposed upon the subjects, without most people even realizing it.
"If you stopped being hypocritical for a second you'd see how often you hold people around you to your standards, and how those standards influence your behavior towards them, your opinions, your friendship, your choice in lovers. Plus, everyone needs a push or motivation to achieve a standard. It's the natural tendency to sit on the ass and do nothing instead of work for anything. If it weren't for the standards people are holding one another to, there would hardly be any progress around."
You're not differentiating between types of standards and how they are imposed. How is shaving "progress"? This isn't about pushing women to greater heights, for their own good. It's about men imposing an arbitrary standard of beauty for their own sake. In Korea, plastic surgery is a social standard. Women are expected to have surgery to make themselves prettier, and if they don't, they're openly ridiculed. There's a difference between constructive and non-constructive standards. I'm not saying you have to like body hair. I'm saying that the fact that many modern cultures reinforce that women have to shave, and that to leave their body in it's natural state is in fact unnatural and repulsive, is an unfair double standard. I know you said that you don't mind it on strangers, only on your lover, and I appreciate that level of open-mindedness in our close-minded culture. But you act as if you own her body. Requesting your preference is one thing, demanding it in the name of social conformity is another.
"What the fuck. Men are held by physical standards too, judged based on their appearance, just like women. Instead of plucking their eyebrows though, most have to build muscles for example, because the amount of women wanting a fat blob or skinny toothpick as a man is just about the same as men wanting a wooly woman. What's more difficult to achieve, I'll leave it to you to decide."
Yes, men are held to the standard of being in reasonable shape. That is the only beauty standard men are held to, aside from basic hygiene. Granted, other things are presented, but clearly optional. Like fashionable clothes or trimming facial hair. Meanwhile, women are also held to the standard of staying in shape. And to a greater degree than men. If a woman has a little pudge, or a little cellulite, she gets called fat. A man has to be considerably more overweight than a woman, to be judged in the same way. And between an obese man and an obese woman, both will be judged, the woman will almost always be judged more harshly. On top of that, women are held to countless other standards, which take time, money, effort, and sometimes pain, to fulfill. And this achieves nothing for them, as a person. Even after fulfilling them, women are frequently still judged more harshly than men. Because many people measure a woman, as a whole, by appearance. When people are at the center of attention, for whatever reason (news anchor, athlete, politician, musician, actor, etc...), so much of the commentary on women has nothing to do with the talent they're showcasing or the ideas they're expressing. It's about how they look. I can think of so many unattractive male actors, musicians, news anchors.... Unattractive female celebrities?.... Two or three. Who are fairly small-time and aren't even really ugly. They just don't look like they popped out of the pages of playboy. I'm not saying women are forced to hold themselves to the standards of beauty, but they're made to feel utterly inadequate and even freakish, if they don't. And to suggest that men are held to equal standards and face the same ridicule, is preposterous.
"You don't hear men like me bitching about having to wear a smart suit to some official occasion when we'd rather be in our boxers, do you."
I do, actually. Both of the boyfriends I've had have whined about such things. : P And so many men are quick to fuss like a five-year-old and throw down the oppression card, when asked by their girlfriends or wives, to shave their beards.
"The same way I'd react if she asked me to get breast implants. I'm not asking her to do smth that isn't suited to her gender. Your whole comparison is fucked up."
Suited to her gender? So you're with Angee then, in thinking that body hair is somehow "unnatural" on a woman? Waxing and razors are not an occurrence of nature, Ed. Women don't come out of the womb holding a pair of tweezers. Aside from a few temporary fads of ancient cultures, the removal of body hair wasn't even a practice until less than 100 years ago. The removal of armpit hair became a fad after a fashion magazine started pushing the idea just before the 1920's. And it didn't become popularized with the working class until years later. Leg hair, despite skirts showing leg from as early as the turn of the century, did not become commonplace until the late 1940's. And that's only in America. The fad of shaving didn't become widespread in other countries until the 70's, 80's, and in some cases, 90's. In many countries, it's still not a common practice. Since it was rooted in America, if it wasn't for the increase in exchange of culture in the past 50 years, it may never have become a practice where you live. And the idea of hairless women might have seemed utterly strange to you. And in some countries, like Puerto Rico for instance, men are expected to shave their legs as well. So you don't "feel" like you've been socially programmed? Even though media and social interaction has reinforced these recent and arbitrary standards of beauty, to the point that you actually think that being hairless is somehow intrinsic to the nature of being female? Social expectations are changeable. Hypothetically, if the social expectation was for women to be hairy, and men to shave, would you go along with that? If yes, your need to conform for others acceptance saddens me. If no, who's the hypocrite now? : P
I suppose.
I don't remember you distinctively encouraging me to try it out, but the criticism I got here was overall another factor that tempted me to break that old belief I had. With this new curiosity open to explore all I had left to do was try it out and that instance went well.
The Male Gaze. I learned that this had a name in a film class I took and since then spent some time theorizing a series of side effects that such a thing likely carries.
"Hypothetically, if the social expectation was for women to be hairy, and men to shave, would you go along with that? If yes, your need to conform for others acceptance saddens me."
Works for me. I wouldn't have to change my behaviors at all.
It's okay, I understand that you're a bit slow, so I'll elaborate on each of the points:
""Natural"? You really ought to work on your word choices."
This is me referencing you calling your preferences the "Natural Order". Much like your use of the word "should", as Crow mentioned, it's the wrong word choice with what's been said in this topic by this point.
"The dates she posted show that it's really more of a fad gone viral."
Check the bottom of Crow's long post that references dates within the past 100 years. It shows how recent this "Natural Order" as you call it really is.
"Then again you aren't the most thorough reader... so such mistakes are expected."
Here I'm referencing the revelation of your lack of... err... reading patience highlighted in the topic Dearest John. I'd highlight the specific post to help you understand what's going on that much more so if this forum wasn't so faulty in that area.
You're welcome.
