LOL Meatloaf's boobs. I LOL'd my face off the first time I watched that :D
I would stay. Fight for your life. It doesn't matter if the groups or Jesus annoy you, it is still better than being an alcoholic mentally ill person in a dark trashed up appartment full of piss bottles. Also are you sure you dont need spirituality? It is a great resource. You can also believe is goodness, the people, helping others etc.. Having a purpose in life is a great resource. I also doubt that you use the full potential of the groups to your benefit. Have you cried like a bitch already? Have you been held by the group? A group on vulnerability didnt do anything for you? I think you need this as anyone else does. Most people who tell me the groups do not do anything for them are narcissists or very afraid of opening up and being vulnerable (often both is the case).
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5/7/2021 2:45:42 PM
Turncoat said:It's personal surrender, which doesn't end well once they fall back into substances over how they've been trained to see themselves as nothing.
It's surrender in the sense of admitting powerlessness or defeat over substance control. Sure, some may be more likely to relapse if they have it in their minds that they can't stop themselves. But conversely, some see their periods of sobriety as proof of strength and a reminder of capability.
Turncoat said:It turns the entire process black & white, and how is an agnostic supposed to cover steps 3, 6, 7, and 11?
It is very much black and white, but that's the intent of the program. Like how a Lutheran church is intended to prescribe Christianity. Anyone who doesn't want to be there need not attend.
I'm not exactly sure how atheists/agnostics do certain steps. I think AA uses inventory for 3, 6, 7. 11 is probably pretty idiosyncratic. That's guessing; I'm not really big on AA because it sounds to me like self-neutering. I would only find it useful for meeting people and networking.
Turncoat said:The best idea honestly is the sunken investment of success, the count of how many days they've made it sober being represented by a physical fetish object (the sobriety chip) since that, rather than pushing the idea of surrender, instead pushes a slow willpower gain with a representation of how far you've come and how much they'd be letting go of. This sort of idea works by contrast over how it's not designed to have you mill yourself down, but rather pride yourself over achieving something like running a marathon.
Absolutely.
Turncoat said:If the autopilots go against the person's own desires, it makes sense to target those rather than throw your life into the very same surrender from the other side of the coin. There has to be a base of tenacity or it just becomes a series of transitions, and the work ought to focus on converting stubborn behaviors against addiction instead of simply proxying the surrender elsewhere, turning God into their new Happy Hour until Happy Hour becomes their God.
I argue similarly against programs where you dissociate all your problems into a Tiger or some other beast. While the metaphor of 'feeding the beast' is an effective one I've also seen it used as a source of splitting, having them essentially behave as if there are two senses of themselves rather than training one sense of self to be strong.
I see the reasoning in this, but I also see people where there are only two sides of the coin to begin with. The old AA saying applies: “One drink is too many, and a thousand never enough." There are many people for whom dopamine abuse is tantamount to a game of Russian roulette.
Turncoat said:The biggest trap is the inconsistency of tolerance, and I wish I had an answer for that but I really don't beyond self-abuse rather than self-surrender. Like many things I've argued it has to hurt to get better, and that pain has to be grit through rather than gently pushed.
If people could have a consistent tolerance across their entire lives, addiction would not be nearly as much of a pitfall trap. If someone found joy in just drinking one or two shots, that joy will slowly wean as they adjust to it, requiring more to get to that same place until the next thing you know you're downing an entire bottle to get you where those last two shots used to.
Moderation requires divorcing from fun, seeing the substance almost more like medication rather than gluttony.
The important part in my opinion lies in frequency of use over days. Serious alcohol tolerance takes a while to develop, the kind that develops with excessive use. Getting drunk 2 or even 3 days in a row, or catching a small buzz a few times a week isn't a big deal. When your body starts to crave it is when the real problems begin.
Turncoat said:Synanon didn't seem sinister either, and they were showing great strides in changing how people behave with their 72 hour brainwashing sessions. You also mentioned Scientology on your list of examples which isn't really any better about this.
Just as an example of how social integration makes a remarkable difference. The range of things that prove this runs from Good Samaritans to Jonestown.
Turncoat said:AA also survives entirely on the backs of it's followers, through donations to the program and sales of their literature. Conditioning lifelong followers to practice self-surrender is a pretty easy way to get people to be willing to throw their cash at the program, and even if they aren't themselves planning to turn it into something else down the line the practices themselves I'd still argue are psychologically damaging against one's grit and determination, the opposite of what they're trying to promise people.
The money they collect usually goes to expenses for local chapters, AA is nonprofit. I see that as a positive rather than a negative.
Turncoat said:It's the fact that the very same path that leads to success can be accomplished just as easily as failure with the substance by changing your immediate company and switching out your deity.
Probably easier said than done for most.
Wow. It looks like these ppl don't want you to succeed :P
You know you don't have to pray to a Xtian god to get back to a place and time in yourself when you appreciated the beauty and the wonder in the world, right?
It's true that 12 step programs use the Spiritus contra Spiritum model, and dullards who are stuck in the masochistic side of some imaginary relationship with some ridiculous sex phobic sky daddy don't quite grasp all the nuance to the shift in worldview that goes with that.
But if you can see past all the god talk, it's a simple matter of feeling a deep reverence and joy in our earth as a living thing, appreciating the beauty in all living things, and seeing yourself as a part of that system, to begin feeling real self respect again. A person who truly appreciates being alive won't poison him/herself with alcohol or drugs. Whether organized religion is part of the process or not.
Right, AA is more quasi-spiritual from what I've seen. I'm not at all spiritual, probably the closest I get to that is an appreciation for art and nature. Nor am I big into AA.
Xena said:You should see if your treatment facility will allow you to go on a nature hike or smthg. Go feed some baby ducks :)
Do you even have nature trails in Cleveland? lol would you have to arm yourself to properly enjoy them?
There's a lot of land here, but the insurance side hasn't been worked out yet. Cleveland actually has some very nice parks (like the Cleveland Metroparks), and they aren't dangerous as far as I know.
Google said:Together, the 18 Metroparks cover 23,000 acres and contain 300 miles of hiking trails, eight parks with lake access, eight golf courses and the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo.
mentally ill person
That's a bit of a stretch.
ddddddd said:Also are you sure you dont need spirituality? It is a great resource. You can also believe is goodness, the people, helping others etc..
I'm not blind to the things you're mentioning. They aren't spiritual to me, though. Is there something you are spiritual about?
ddddddd said:Have you cried like a bitch already? Have you been held by the group? A group on vulnerability didnt do anything for you? I think you need this as anyone else does. Most people who tell me the groups do not do anything for them are narcissists or very afraid of opening up and being vulnerable (often both is the case).
When you think about it, the fact that you knew something such as that I had a bunch of bottles filled with urine in my room goes to show how open and vulnerable I am willing to be. I've already processed things that get brought up in groups. Thus there isn't much to suddenly uncover and have an outburst about.
When you think about it, the fact that you knew something such as that I had a bunch of bottles filled with urine in my room goes to show how open and vulnerable I am willing to be. I've already processed things that get brought up in groups. Thus there isn't much to suddenly uncover and have an outburst about.
Talking on Online forums is very different from a group therapy session. You can see the difference, too? How many people in real life do you have, that know this shit? Group therapy is not really about suddenly you process something etc or you realize something etc... It is also about the dynamic process that happens when you interact with others on a deeper level and so on. This itself is one of the greatest therapeutic processes that happens. If you lean back and dont participate, you cant benefit from this. The content etc does not really matter for this. Also maybe it is not the piss bottles that you are vulnerable about? What are you not willing to be open about? Talk about that.
ddddddd said:Talking on Online forums is very different from a group therapy session. You can see the difference, too?
You may be underestimating the format.
ddddddd said:How many people in real life do you have, that know this shit?
A lot.
ddddddd said:Group therapy is not really about suddenly you process something etc or you realize something etc... It is also about the dynamic process that happens when you interact with others on a deeper level and so on. This itself is one of the greatest therapeutic processes that happens. If you lean back and dont participate, you cant benefit from this. The content etc does not really matter for this. Also maybe it is not the piss bottles that you are vulnerable about? What are you not willing to be open about? Talk about that.
There's a lot of assumption here. You imply that I don't what group therapy is about, that I don't participate, that I am not open about vulnerabilities. That being vulnerable means someone should probably be crying in a group and that's a sign of breakthrough, and that the people who don't view it that way are probably narcissists. It reads like some psych 101 that a new therapist tries out on their first group lead...not everything is smoke and mirrors, projection, deflection, etc.
bro you can type as nice and high effort as you want but it is clear to all here that are awake that you dont want to face yourself
It looks like that psychology degree is really paying off for you.