Message Turncoat in a DM to get moderator attention

Users Online(? lurkers):
10 / 50 posts
Posts: 2283
0 votes RE: Ennui

Why don't you get on Dr Phil?  You could make money to get your own place and even become succesful being a drunk funny character like this guy:

You would just have to record your drunk meltdowns on discord vc,rages and ramblings, your thoughts on metaphysics and extraterestial entities/extra dimensions, your life at grandmas house, become a drunk crazy funny celebrity like lindsay lohan or Alex jones,  then get me a visa to USA, get the whole gang good

Not being ironic or memey btw, id do it i was in your position

consumed by avarice
last edit on 5/7/2021 3:28:33 AM
Posts: 2647
0 votes RE: Ennui

Wow. It looks like these ppl don't want you to succeed  :P

You know you don't have to pray to a Xtian god to get back to a place and time in yourself when you appreciated the beauty and the wonder in the world, right?

It's true that 12 step programs use  the Spiritus contra Spiritum model, and dullards who are stuck in the masochistic side of some imaginary relationship with some ridiculous sex phobic sky daddy don't quite grasp all the nuance to the shift in worldview that goes with that.

But if you can see past all the god talk, it's a simple matter of feeling a deep reverence and joy in our earth as a living thing, appreciating the beauty in all living things, and seeing yourself as a part of that system, to begin feeling real self respect again. A person who truly appreciates being alive won't poison him/herself with alcohol or drugs. Whether organized religion is part of the process or not.

 

You should see if your treatment facility will allow you to go on a nature hike or smthg. Go feed some baby ducks  :)

Do you even have nature trails in Cleveland? lol would you have to arm yourself to properly enjoy them?

Posts: 2647
0 votes RE: Ennui

Interesting tidbit: A recent study done on 120 addicts in treatment showed that 63% were 'paths.

I'm looking for other studies with  bigger sample sizes to back up the researchers' findings.

 

Maybe try some oxytocin for that PD?  ;D

Posts: 32797
0 votes RE: Ennui
Turncoat said:
It demands that their patients surrender to the program and God, look at the 12 steps:

This part is flexible. God is conceived of as "a power greater than ourselves" in AA, there's a section in the Alcoholics Anonymous book addressed for agnostics that covers this. For some, this is the power of the group setting, or a spiritual connection with the universe, etc.

It's personal surrender, which doesn't end well once they fall back into substances over how they've been trained to see themselves as nothing. It turns the entire process black & white, and how is an agnostic supposed to cover steps 3, 6, 7, and 11? The bandage becomes a trapdoor solution with cult undertones, which is why wellness programs convert into them so easily. Self-surrender is not healthy, and I've watched numerous addicts get worse through the ideology of the program being double-edged through enabling weakness and self-pity. 

The best idea honestly is the sunken investment of success, the count of how many days they've made it sober being represented by a physical fetish object (the sobriety chip) since that, rather than pushing the idea of surrender, instead pushes a slow willpower gain with a representation of how far you've come and how much they'd be letting go of. This sort of idea works by contrast over how it's not designed to have you mill yourself down, but rather pride yourself over achieving something like running a marathon. 

Turncoat said:
Rather than teaching personal willpower and how to moderate it pushes a feast or famine model on the basis of giving up, making it easy to give up on giving up. It also makes them act more like bitch boys until their faith is no longer enough, then it's like when college-aged Christians leave the closet and go whole hog into sin.

Willpower can be a reasonable safeguard certain people. There are those where I am that are in their 50s and 60s, and they've tried moderation, usually many times since their 20s. Any drug use for them has led back to their drug of choice, and then often to criminal behavior, prison, and a total collapse in the living situation. Many of these people will say that they have no self control once they make the first step, and that drug use just isn't worth what comes with it. Addiction is something to be avoided at all costs for these people. There are lots of stories here of people that were here or other local treatment centers that end up relapsing and dying.

This is why I see more hope from Antabuse programs, as it actually conditions your automatic responses. The only issue I see with Antabuse is ensuring the patient takes it or if they're desperate enough to try to adapt to the debilitating sickness of it from 'normal' feeling that awful. 

If the autopilots go against the person's own desires, it makes sense to target those rather than throw your life into the very same surrender from the other side of the coin. There has to be a base of tenacity or it just becomes a series of transitions, and the work ought to focus on converting stubborn behaviors against addiction instead of simply proxying the surrender elsewhere, turning God into their new Happy Hour until Happy Hour becomes their God. 

I argue similarly against programs where you dissociate all your problems into a Tiger or some other beast. While the metaphor of 'feeding the beast' is an effective one I've also seen it used as a source of splitting, having them essentially behave as if there are two senses of themselves rather than training one sense of self to be strong. 


Those who have had severe addiction but may not necessarily be confined to that with use (I include myself in that group) should be able to live normally with willpower. It can be risky, especially for people such as myself that sees the end goal as the heavily intoxicated experience as opposed to a few drinks or one pill. It's a game of dose frequency, spacing, and gauging lifestyle permeation that requires a lot of care and investment in other obligations.

Turncoat said:
You aren't worried about the slippery slope of perception and an adaptive tolerance?

I would be a fool to not worry about that. I still haven't completely thought out how I want to conduct all of this yet.

The biggest trap is the inconsistency of tolerance, and I wish I had an answer for that but I really don't beyond self-abuse rather than self-surrender. Like many things I've argued it has to hurt to get better, and that pain has to be grit through rather than gently pushed. 

If people could have a consistent tolerance across their entire lives, addiction would not be nearly as much of a pitfall trap. If someone found joy in just drinking one or two shots, that joy will slowly wean as they adjust to it, requiring more to get to that same place until the next thing you know you're downing an entire bottle to get you where those last two shots used to. 

Moderation requires divorcing from fun, seeing the substance almost more like medication rather than gluttony. 

Turncoat said:
If you call that working and not integrating, then yeah we could even call Synanon 'healthy'.

AA doesn't seem very sinister to me. One might miss out on a bit of fun if they're one of the people who could develop adequate discipline in a responsible way, or if they fall victim to a "13th stepper."

Synanon didn't seem sinister either, and they were showing great strides in changing how people behave with their 72 hour brainwashing sessions. You also mentioned Scientology on your list of examples which isn't really any better about this. 

AA also survives entirely on the backs of it's followers, through donations to the program and sales of their literature. Conditioning lifelong followers to practice self-surrender is a pretty easy way to get people to be willing to throw their cash at the program, and even if they aren't themselves planning to turn it into something else down the line the practices themselves I'd still argue are psychologically damaging against one's grit and determination, the opposite of what they're trying to promise people. 

It's the fact that the very same path that leads to success can be accomplished just as easily as failure with the substance by changing your immediate company and switching out your deity. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 5/7/2021 2:11:03 PM
Posts: 32797
1 votes RE: Ennui

Also the asking for forgiveness step I've seen make people drop the program, especially if some part of them blames any of those people for why they drink. While this is meant to help get through snags it can just as quickly turn AA into that snag. 

One specific case that thankfully found it's own way came from how the alcoholism stems from having been raised by a narcissistic parent. Naturally that parent has gone on and on about how much they've been hurt and nothing's their fault, and for the child of such a parent it can be easy to believe that. If they get it in their heads that said Narc-Parent is one of the ones who need addressing for steps 8 and 9 it can undo everything. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 5/7/2021 11:55:19 AM
Posts: 2647
0 votes RE: Ennui

Oh I see.

Narcissistic parents do tend to put a lot of broken assholes into the world.

 

But you're losing focus "what about" ing Tryp. I've seen a lot of people succeed with those programs, too.

That 63% stat is eye opening, as well.

Some 'paths do need to stop tryinta be so controlling.

 

But this is about Tryp, not your narc friend.

last edit on 5/7/2021 11:59:21 AM
Posts: 2647
0 votes RE: Ennui

Also the asking for forgiveness step I've seen make people drop the program, especially if some part of them blames any of those people for why they drink. While this is meant to help get through snags it can just as quickly turn AA into that snag. 

One specific case that thankfully found it's own way came from how the alcoholism stems from having been raised by a narcissistic parent. Naturally that parent has gone on and on about how much they've been hurt and nothing's their fault, and for the child of such a parent it can be easy to believe that. If they get it in their heads that said Narc-Parent is one of the ones who need addressing for steps 8 and 9 it can undo everything. 

 A person can't blame another person for his/her drinking and not be lying to him/herself.

The alcoholic in question is the one who hands the money to the barkeep or liquor store, cracks that bottle open and drinks.

So not unless the other person held a gun to his/her head is anybody but the alcoholic responsible for his/her drinking.

Posts: 32797
0 votes RE: Ennui
Xena said: 

But you're losing focus "what about" ing Tryp. I've seen a lot of people succeed with those programs, too.

That 63% stat is eye opening, as well.

Are you giving me a rough average of this stat or is yours from something else, as I tried looking up 63% in particular and it returned nothing: 

In the Big Book, AA states its approximate success rate is 50%, plus 25%. This means that 50% of members stay sober, 25% of members relapse but come back, and 25% fail to use AA effectively and do not remain sober.

First off, this is AA's own numbers (from the books they make money off of) and secondly, these numbers don't seem exact. 

I don't really find the above stat that promising, more so a potential solution among others. I however as I've gone on about see problems with how they try to fix the person and would suggest they try a better program. 

50% success is literally flipping a coin, meaning their success could just as easily be coming from other unrelated things while they're in the program; False attribution. 

Some 'paths do need to stop tryinta be so controlling.

Scientology and other cults agree with you. 😉

But this is about Tryp, not your narc friend.

Check your ADD, I was talking about victims of narc parents. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 5/7/2021 12:19:04 PM
Posts: 32797
0 votes RE: Ennui
Xena said: 

Also the asking for forgiveness step I've seen make people drop the program, especially if some part of them blames any of those people for why they drink. While this is meant to help get through snags it can just as quickly turn AA into that snag. 

One specific case that thankfully found it's own way came from how the alcoholism stems from having been raised by a narcissistic parent. Naturally that parent has gone on and on about how much they've been hurt and nothing's their fault, and for the child of such a parent it can be easy to believe that. If they get it in their heads that said Narc-Parent is one of the ones who need addressing for steps 8 and 9 it can undo everything. 

 A person can't blame another person for his/her drinking and not be lying to him/herself.

They can still refuse to forgive someone while otherwise becoming sober or moderated, as I've seen accomplished by anti-AA success stories. 

"Forgive and Forget" for many is better off as "Move on", as there are many cases that do not deserve forgiveness nor a potential passage for the very toxicity that turned them in the first place. 

But if you can see past all the god talk, it's a simple matter of feeling a deep reverence and joy in our earth as a living thing, appreciating the beauty in all living things, and seeing yourself as a part of that system, to begin feeling real self respect again. A person who truly appreciates being alive won't poison him/herself with alcohol or drugs. Whether organized religion is part of the process or not.

Why not just seek out a program that isn't AA? 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 5/7/2021 12:15:35 PM
Posts: 2647
0 votes RE: Ennui

I had a friend who went to Alateen meetings and found them immensely helpful.

These are the AA slogans they used there.

 

Posted Image

 

Except there were 12...

wtf? Those weren't the 12 steps? My friend always thought they were...

 

Anyhoo...

The discussion at my friend's alateen meeting opened the flood gates for my inner philosopher :D

It wouldn't hurt you to get out and meditate on some of these with the smells of spring all around.

It's almost lilac season. The smell of lilacs and roses make any kind of contemplation so much nicer  :)

 

Posted Image

10 / 50 posts
This site contains NSFW material. To view and use this site, you must be 18+ years of age.