Sociopath Community

Turncoat said: 

Good said: 

Someone that cares has every right to be angry.

Did you lose someone to suicide or something? 

Edit: 

I've never thought about suicide, apart from weird daydreaming, nor I have lost someone like that, so I was not sure why I was so passionate about this after reading your comment, but I think I know why now: it is like a form of unintentional guilt-tripping. And those piss me off.

I was going to say, our talks on this have had you a bit more emotionally budged too, which is what had me assume you must have dealt with something like it in the past. 

So you're this entitled towards another's autonomy with no actual experience in the subject? 

I have experience in entitled behaviour and I think the idea that you should not be angry at someone, because that someone is sad, is an entitled idea.

Turncoat said: 

You can do that without a sense of perceived ownership over the other person's life though. 

People come and go, and it's not really up to us how long that a connection with someone lasts beyond our contributions towards it.

This is not about a sense of ownership. You are again missing the point. Even if it's not a suicide and someone just leaves your life for any reason, that someone must consider the impact it would have on their friends. In most cases it is OK ofc, because normal cases are reasonable: a new job, going away from bad memories, moving with a partner, getting away from a bad situation, etc. Suicide is not reasonable. A true friend should accept something reasonable, suicide is like doing drugs, but far worse, it is self-destructive and wrong. Should you not be disappointed at someone doing drugs?

So you become responsible for the damage you do to your friend and so does he towards you. 

Like Jim said, it's you hurting yourself over your attachment to your friend. The person trying to die isn't doing it specifically to try to hurt other people's feelings (typically), and it makes  as much  even less sense as yelling at someone for wanting to move away. 

The motivation can soften the impact, but the impact is still there.

It does not feel like Alena is doing any guilt-tripping actually. It is her defenders, they are those that try to guilt-trip Spatial. I was speaking in the context where the one that attempted suicide acted like that, but Alena is not doing it herself. 

You at least don't just see it as "people trying to paint Spatial as the villain" now, right? 

No, that was and still is just you doing it.

Why should you care about someone that does not care about you?

So you think someone trying to kill themselves must not care about those it'd hurt? 

Yes, even if they insist they do and that it may even be the reason for their suicide. I do not believe they see it objectively. I do not fault them, considering their condition at that time, but it is still like that.

You condemn the people who do not show empathy but instead feel spited, as if they expect that random strangers won't kill themselves for their benefit, but it is about those close to you, not randoms. If you do not care about them, then they shouldn't care about you or give you the support you mention.

Someone can express to their suicidal buddy that they don't want them to die or would rather they not die without being aggressive in ways that could potentially push them to succeed.

Yeah, I never talked about how you should handle the anger you feel.

I can understand having empathy toward your fellow human being and why you are angry at people who put their feefees over the life of someone. But you do not understand having anger towards a friend who hurt you. Both apply at the same time. 

I think the one trying to suicide takes precedence over some hurt feelings from people who are otherwise mortally safe. 

Suicide is hurt feelings manifest.

Maybe if your friends viewed suicide as a good option I would see your point more clearly. I do not. If I believed that suicide is the right choice, I could accept it. But I do not believe in religions or that killing yourself is how you should relief yourself. Unless you have an incurable disease that makes your life misery. So when someone kills themselves for other reasons, I just see it as a quick fix that they chose and hurt their friends in the process.

Have you perhaps figured how intense suicidal feelings must be for it to take precedence over other things? 

I am sure it sucks. But you can't let emotions cloud your judgment. Otherwise, have you considered how angry someone is before they commit murder(in a lot of cases)? It does not excuse the behaviour. It only complicates the solution, as you have to handle it delicately to defuse the suicidal ideas.

Granted I'm skimming responses and not reading 6 pages of self quoting text. Being angry at what happened is somewhat of a selfish and fake response to what happened. If you were sold on the idea and cared enough to be angry, you would be relieved to find that the person is okay mainly.

For some reason, besides acting like this person's well being has weight to you, your only focus is on what happened to you because of this ordeal

Bossroach said: 

 I think when people get mad at someones suicide, they are not doing it because they care about the other person and want them to not suffer or be well, they do it because they care about their own feelings and losing whatever they get out of that person, thus selfish. I would not care about the feelings of such a person, because they're not concerned about my own pain and me finding relief.

The last friend that killed themselves, I was the one who pushed them to suicide so I can't really comment on this part

When you invest your trust and care into someone, you feel empathy for them. When they are in pain or you lose them, you feel pain because of it.
The only reason you actually care about them is that you suffer when they do.

Your death is far more painful than your suffering to someone that cares about you when your death is meaningless, preventable and a result of self-destruction. It is not a sacrifice for something or an acceptable path to take. It is just surrendering, I can't accept that, it is wrong.

Kestrel said: 

Granted I'm skimming responses and not reading 6 pages of self quoting text. Being angry at what happened is somewhat of a selfish and fake response to what happened. If you were sold on the idea and cared enough to be angry, you would be relieved to find that the person is okay mainly.

For some reason, besides acting like this person's well being has weight to you, your only focus is on what happened to you because of this ordeal

I agree, I was displeased with the idea of Alena's suicide and I felt relieved once she was back.

If I had more intense feelings, I might have been angry and I would be relieved even more so.

Turncoat said: 

Good said: 

When you make the choice to hurt them(regardless if that was not the goal), it is entitled to expect that they will just eat it up and have no right to feel hurt.

I mean everyone is entitled to feelings, but it's another thing entirely to act like it's purely a matter of faulting someone. It's completely selfish and unsympathetic, and shows that the friendship was all about you. 

The fault matters because you can't be friends with someone who is toxic to your life.

You think this wouldn't be more readily apparent to you before they try to kill themselves? 

Irrelevant, it could be, it could not be, I can't foresee all possible scenarios and explain them for this conversation.

If they intentionally hurt you or disregard you continuously, you have to consider how much you are willing to take for them.

Intentionally, continuously, where'd those come from?

From the required parameters for the condition to be passed. If only one event is toxic, there might be reasons that you can work out or the other person can work out, or it may be a small enough issue not to outweigh the benefits. If the event is not intentional, then it can depend on how it happened: if its totally out of their control, then you can't really fault them, but if it happens all the time even if its out of their control, it can weight down on you; or if it is in their control but it was an accident, were they stupid/careless and other things may matter, or others...

I am not saying to drop someone the moment they (attempt to) kill themselves, I am talking about why you have the right to be angry.

I don't see it as a "right" beyond personal feelings. 

Again, people are free to feel whatever they want, but they have personal responsibility over what they do with those feelings. If someone wants to take their own life, that's them making a choice over themselves, while choosing to yell at someone for making a choice over their own lives is attempting to take control over another person's choices. 

I've not discussed what you should do. You should definitely show that you are hurt, eventually, maybe not right the way depends. But your primary concern, if the suicide failed, is not your own feelings, usually.

Good said: 

Bossroach said: 

 I think when people get mad at someones suicide, they are not doing it because they care about the other person and want them to not suffer or be well, they do it because they care about their own feelings and losing whatever they get out of that person, thus selfish. I would not care about the feelings of such a person, because they're not concerned about my own pain and me finding relief.

The last friend that killed themselves, I was the one who pushed them to suicide so I can't really comment on this part

When you invest your trust and care into someone, you feel empathy for them. When they are in pain or you lose them, you feel pain because of it. 

The only reason you actually care about them is that you suffer when they do.

So... you're saying it makes sense to be actively mad at people who made you feel things by proxy? 

"Your being in pain hurts me and it's all your fault." 

Your death is far more painful than your suffering to someone that cares about you when your death is meaningless, preventable and a result of self-destruction.

What makes it meaningless? I'd figure that suicide would have great meaning to someone once they hit the stages of ideation. 

It is not a sacrifice for something or an acceptable path to take. It is just surrendering, I can't accept that, it is wrong.

How hard it is to do it makes it no longer seem like surrender to me. 

Turncoat said: 

Good said: 

Bossroach said: 

 I think when people get mad at someones suicide, they are not doing it because they care about the other person and want them to not suffer or be well, they do it because they care about their own feelings and losing whatever they get out of that person, thus selfish. I would not care about the feelings of such a person, because they're not concerned about my own pain and me finding relief.

The last friend that killed themselves, I was the one who pushed them to suicide so I can't really comment on this part

When you invest your trust and care into someone, you feel empathy for them. When they are in pain or you lose them, you feel pain because of it. 

The only reason you actually care about them is that you suffer when they do.

So... you're saying it makes sense to be actively mad at people who made you feel things by proxy? 

"Your being in pain hurts me and it's all your fault." 

That's what it means to care, is this news to you? Do you think you can care without feeling pain when the thing you care about is under siege? If you do not feel anything, then you do not care. Sometimes your autism is so annoying.

This is a fact you should consider yes, your actions have an effect on others and if you care about them, then you will know your friends care about you as well(assuming they really do). If you are fine with hurting them, then do you really care about them? In most cases when someone leaves someone's life, they do feel bad that they are hurting their friend when they leave because they know their friend cares and they know them leaving hurts him. Of course, the friend accepts their decision despite that, when it's reasonable...

Your death is far more painful than your suffering to someone that cares about you when your death is meaningless, preventable and a result of self-destruction.

What makes it meaningless? I'd figure that suicide would have great meaning to someone once they hit the stages of ideation.

Because it is not to achieve some goal, it is not because someone forced them into it, it is a preventable event caused only by being down, the meaning is to stop feeling bad. This meaning is not worth your life and it's hardly acceptable, there are so many other ways that are less permanent. Not to mention that the suicidal feeling is not a permanent one either. It is just self-destructive.

It is not a sacrifice for something or an acceptable path to take. It is just surrendering, I can't accept that, it is wrong.

How hard it is to do it makes it no longer seem like surrender to me. 

If you kill yourself, it means its harder to live, which means surrender.

Good said: 

Even if it's not a suicide and someone just leaves your life for any reason, that someone must consider the impact it would have on their friends.

I mean I think it's the nicer thing to do, but for the sake of argument why must they do it? 

As mentioned earlier as well, some will try to push away all of their friends so that they'll care less when they try to kill themselves. It's not that the impacts that it'd have on their friends don't matter to them, it's that dying matters more at the time. 

It's a matter of priorities. 

A true friend should accept something reasonable, suicide is like doing drugs, but far worse, it is self-destructive and wrong. Should you not be disappointed at someone doing drugs?

When did this become the D.A.R.E. program? 

A lot of what I have against excessive and reckless drug use is more over how it affects those around them directly. If they take PCP and start punching people or even just drink to the point of yelling at people, that's different than if they handle it more privately or otherwise handle themselves well. 

If their behavior is otherwise in check, all that remains are the health concerns. Much like suicide I'd express concern over the behavior and attempt to use sentiment to coax them back, but handling it aggressively would just be asking them to run deeper into the substance, or back on topic, potentially deeper into suicide. 

It does not feel like Alena is doing any guilt-tripping actually. It is her defenders, they are those that try to guilt-trip Spatial. I was speaking in the context where the one that attempted suicide acted like that, but Alena is not doing it herself. 

You at least don't just see it as "people trying to paint Spatial as the villain" now, right? 

No, that was and still is just you doing it.

...so you still think I really don't care at this point? 

Why should you care about someone that does not care about you?

So you think someone trying to kill themselves must not care about those it'd hurt? 

Yes, even if they insist they do and that it may even be the reason for their suicide. I do not believe they see it objectively. I do not fault them, considering their condition at that time, but it is still like that.

Those I've met who felt ready to die usually were considering their friends pretty strongly beforehand. Many are delayed as long as they are because of how it might hurt others, but past a point it's not always enough. 

Picking one over the other doesn't mean they don't care, it means that dying mattered more. It's another thing entirely to not care about it. 

You condemn the people who do not show empathy but instead feel spited, as if they expect that random strangers won't kill themselves for their benefit, but it is about those close to you, not randoms. If you do not care about them, then they shouldn't care about you or give you the support you mention.

Someone can express to their suicidal buddy that they don't want them to die or would rather they not die without being aggressive in ways that could potentially push them to succeed.

Yeah, I never talked about how you should handle the anger you feel.

In your defending Spatial's here you're also defending his actions, aren't you? 

I can understand having empathy toward your fellow human being and why you are angry at people who put their feefees over the life of someone. But you do not understand having anger towards a friend who hurt you. Both apply at the same time. 

I think the one trying to suicide takes precedence over some hurt feelings from people who are otherwise mortally safe. 

Suicide is hurt feelings manifest.

Yeah, but the ones left behind aren't in mortal danger in the same ways beyond potential suicidal contagion risks. 

Maybe if your friends viewed suicide as a good option I would see your point more clearly. I do not. If I believed that suicide is the right choice, I could accept it. But I do not believe in religions or that killing yourself is how you should relief yourself. Unless you have an incurable disease that makes your life misery. So when someone kills themselves for other reasons, I just see it as a quick fix that they chose and hurt their friends in the process.

Have you perhaps figured how intense suicidal feelings must be for it to take precedence over other things? 

I am sure it sucks. But you can't let emotions cloud your judgment.

People typically resist "emotions clouding their judgement" by flooding their judgement with a different emotion. 

In this case, I see the person being angry as cloudy as well, but there's far less room to sympathize for them beyond them being in poor control over themselves. 

Otherwise, have you considered how angry someone is before they commit murder(in a lot of cases)?

Murder's wrong for how it takes the life of another, while suicide is over the matter of taking your own. 

Assuming the person killed wasn't asking for it (suicide by proxy), the one dead became that way without it being their own personal choice. That's their life being taken from them instead of willingly given away. 

It does not excuse the behaviour. It only complicates the solution, as you have to handle it delicately to defuse the suicidal ideas. 

There needs to be a reason to bother. Even my own sticking around has mostly been a reflex of weakness. 

Bossroach said: 

Good said: 

Someone that cares has every right to be angry.

And if someone cuts you off because they hurt you, aka (failed, since they can't cut you off otherwise) suicide, then you are better off without them.
Imagine the burden you will lose, once you get over it and if they cut you off like this, it is because you have feelings too, so it is clearly not worth carrying.

---

'It is not selfishness'

'It is how you felt'

🤔

 Someone who cares will understand you've been going thru too much pain and need relief, they would be sad but ultimately happy that you have found relief.

A leech who was using you for emotional support or w.e on the other hand, will be angry because you are not providing them whatever emotional need you were fulfilling at that time.

 i love you skank but this is a load of bullshit. no one is happy when someone they care about commits suicide. in fact, the probability of someone close to that person also killing themselves is like 100 times more likely

tc is so incredibly emotionally manipulative and self centred. i don't even think he sees it at this point