Sociopath Community

I think you're mixing together a few different things here. You don't have to like Revengeance, but "I don't know that guy" doesn't really tell me anything about whether Raiden's character development was good or bad.

And the "he's a cyborg now" part is a little off. Raiden was already a cyborg by the end of MGS4, before Revengeance. His transformation didn't suddenly happen because Platinum made a hack-and-slash game. It was already part of his established character.

Platinum developing Revengeance also doesn't make it somehow not Metal Gear. Kojima didn't direct it, but it was still made as a continuation of Raiden's story within the Metal Gear universe. You can dislike the genre change, but "Metal Gear isn't a hack and slash" is more of a preference about the gameplay than an argument against the game or character.

And the sales/meme point actually supports what I was saying. Raiden became recognizable in his own right. Calling him a meme isn't inherently negative, but it doesn't establish that he's inferior to Snake. Snake himself is extremely memetic, and Metal Gear explicitly plays with the concept of memes as a form of inherited information and expression.

I also find it strange that you say you "pity what happened to him" and then treat becoming a cyborg and becoming colder as though those things inherently mean his character got worse. That's another value judgment, not an objective description. Raiden's transformation is part of his character's development.

And I'm not defending Raiden simply because he's my avatar. I'm pointing out that your framing keeps reducing him in relation to Snake. You prefer Snake, that's fine. But "Snake is cooler" doesn't establish that Raiden is a failed character, and "Raiden is a meme" doesn't establish that either. In fact, the fact that Raiden became an independently recognizable character undermines the idea that he was merely an unwanted replacement for Snake.

Spatial Mind said: 

Turncoat said: 

Chapo said: 

I never played much MGS but Raiden is iconic and not including him would have been a mistake imo.

Raiden betrayed the series, they wanted Snake. 

It's why MGS3 joked about it by having him land wearing a Raiden mask. 

Heh. I had to go see that for myself. Never played MGS3.

MGS2 baited people into buying it by having Snake be the first mission, only to be told later 'it was a simulation Raiden was playing'. Snake corrects him and the cutscene of what actually happened strongly differs from how Raiden handled the scenario via using real world strategy not tethered to the limitations of a videogame. 

MGS3 understood people hated Raiden, and made a joke about it by having the game start with him instead via the mask worn. The game then proceeds to have the guy who looked like Raiden (via it being based in the past rather than the present) be the butt buddy of the major villain of the game, literally greeting him by cupping his balls in his electric hand. He knew it wasn't Ivan Raidenovitch Raikov the minute the Snake-Imposter didn't find it arousing when 'greeted' wearing said mask. 

The series shits on Raiden constantly, he was always meant to be an uncool poser. Even when he found power it was on the back of Gray Fox's legacy. He's very likely cupping his balls in this illustration: 



Imagine what this means to a Japanese person. 

As for Raiden. He's iconic as a meme. 

The only meme I saw last the test of time for him was him going into the woman's bathroom to read pornography in the stall. 

Snake's cardboard box strat is pure meme, and Raiden only tries it because of his VR Training RPing as Snake. 

I could get Metal Gear 3 but, I think I'll get bored. 

It's an amazing game that continues to reveal Hideo Kojima's weird genius. The MGS series is true art and has never compromised itself, it has true integrity and takes very strange risks. 

One such risk being Raiden being a purposefully uncool protagonist, expecting the rest of the game and their past success to carry something that risky. Raiden was always meant to be uncool, on purpose, in a game series where everyone else is super fucking badass. To think Raiden is cool is to miss the entire point of his character. Most other franchises giving us an uncool protagonist would instantly turn people off and lend to bad sale metrics, but MGS is different. 

Kojima is seriously a genius, and not understanding how Raiden was meant to be purposefully written as an uncool person completely ignores the writing. 

Turncoat said: 

Kojima is seriously a genius, and not understanding how Raiden was meant to be purposefully written as an uncool person completely ignores the writing. 

 The timing was bad to pull something like that. 

MGS2 at the time was the most anticipated game in the world. PS1 graphics, the polygons are very glitchy, low anti aliasing etc. The system only had 2MB of RAM and 1MB VRAM. Still awesome system. 

PS2 came, the graphics were more stable. MGS2 E3 trailer was bonkers coming from where I came from. Try looking at an Atari 2600 game for more than 5 minutes. MGS2 trailer was enough to make me feel like I've made it to the future. The music was crazy. The water effects crazy. The bottles breaking when shot. The shadows moved correctly with lighting.

For the 4th time Snake was back. He looked super cool in the trailer. The rain effects hitting the character models. The game play, all things never done in a video game. 

Day 1 of release. Owned. Box art. Snake. The whole time I'm playing the game, I'd pass a level and then I'm like "Okay it's Snakes turn" nope. Never happened. That's how I found out Snake wasn't in it.  

I'm pretty sure I have Metal Gear something in my PC on one of the slave drives.......

Metal Gear Solid V Ground Zeroes. Damn thing actually loads and that's a windows 7 HDD. Won't play it. Not sure why, I just don't want to play it. 

I got my Little Big Planet running on PC now and I'm delighted. Maybe I'll get some DLC too, cause I've started from scratch and I need materials and shit to build stuff. Don't worry it's fine, I own all 3 of these LBP games. 

Spatial Mind said: 

Turncoat said: 

Kojima is seriously a genius, and not understanding how Raiden was meant to be purposefully written as an uncool person completely ignores the writing. 

 The timing was bad to pull something like that. 

MGS2 at the time was the most anticipated game in the world. PS1 graphics, the polygons are very glitchy, low anti aliasing etc. The system only had 2MB of RAM and 1MB VRAM. Still awesome system. 

It was on the PS2, and it was exceptional considering when it came out. 

The game is amazing, Raiden is cringe on purpose. The guy sucks on purpose, that's the entire point of his character. From a designer standpoint MSG2 is a work of art far ahead of it's time. 

The Solid Snake portion, which was likely the demo to sell it to people, was waaaay more polished than the rest of the game. 

The water effects crazy. The bottles breaking when shot. The shadows moved correctly with lighting.

That shit was immaculate. 

Kojima is a genius. 

For the 4th time Snake was back. He looked super cool in the trailer. The rain effects hitting the character models. The game play, all things never done in a video game. 

He's an action movie star, he's a badass, he's awesome. 

Raiden is a poser, and that was the entire point of his character. Snake has a real history, Raiden is nobody except a reincarnation of someone buttfucked by the villain in MGS3. The rest of the game save for Fatman was totally badass, demonstrating his cringe. 

Snake litterally comments on how Raiden is a poser, constantly. It was meant to be believed by the writing itself, Raiden fucking sucks ass and we're supposed to understand that. Every time he talks to the Colonel and Rose he's a subordinate, while Snake is a REAL MAN by trope terms, to the point of flaws that are adorable versus Raiden being... sad to watch be a failure.