Sociopath Community

Outro said:

Easy to say from our relative positions, but would you really take that gamble if it was your call to send NATO troops into Ukraine?

Risking nuclear war isn't worth it. Besides, we've war gamed a huge variety of possible outcomes to this (and have been doing so for 20+ years), if NATO intervention looked like the correct path, we'd take it. 

Sometimes I think civilians think these decisions are a coin flip, but strategists, commanders and intelligence agencies have been planning this across multiple administrations for decades. This was a known flash point. 

I think you might be overestimating how clear the line strategists have on this conflict is. There are many diverging opinions among security experts, and current/ex strategists on the correct course of action. Those in the realist school of political thought think capitulating to Putin's security interests and finding a way to mutually de-escalate is the right approach. While many others think a relentless push by the West to punish, isolate and degrade Russia economically, politically and militarily is the best approach. 

Either way, avoiding nuclear escalation is a crucial consideration. What's weird to me is that the West has yet to draw an ethical line indicating what might trigger more direct involvement. The strategy at this point seems to be a slow burn of Russia's military capabilities, which considering he has tactical nukes, seems risky.

Xena said: 

Outro said: 

Xena said: 

Outro said: 

Xena said: 

Outro said: 

Xena said: 

He has 2 daughters that he cares about enough to have kept them a secret all their lives.

He won't nuke them.

Besides, I suspect this sudden quest for glory before he dies is not rlly his doing.

Or at least not his alone.

I suspect there's a coup brewing, and the greedy buggers who are whispering this insane Grima Wormtongue shit in his ears won't be able to hold back much longer. They're going to make a move before long.

I suspect somebody will feed him a pollonium sandwich long before he gets to die of natural causes.

You can't rule the way that guy does without making all kinds of blood enemies.

His successors won't drop nukes, either.

Those people are all talk.

And their nukes are probably as defective as their tanks.

They'll probably blow themselves up before their nukes come out of their storehouses.

Anyway, my point is that Pooptin is not a classy American president.

This is a pissing contest with dirty mafioso rules.

If some thug and 10 of his buddies were mercilessly beating on a friend or business contact of yours in some turf war, would it be enough to just throw the guy a knife? To beg the thugs to stop? To try to bribe them to stop?

I think not.

Is nuclear armageddon at risk in this hypothetic alleyway knife fight? Lmao

No. And it's not a risk with getting involved in the Ukraine war, either.

For the fifth time, I don't believe that smirking midget will drop nukes.

Look, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying "I studied anthopology 25 years ago and therefore I can intuit enough about human behavior to be 100% sure that he won't drop nukes". Anything less than 100% certainty is a no-go in military strategy when nukes are concerned, and your evidence is basically astrology. 

Oh I know you.

You're that guy who used to live with Turncoat.

Your attempts at armchair shrinking me suck, btw.

Hector Projector lol

... What? I've never met or lived with Turncoat. And I'm not "armchair shrinking" you. Your argument is poor. This entire debate has been you rebutting with "there's no risk", "he won't drop nukes", "he's a thug in a knife fight". I'm saying that's a bad argument, and out of step with pretty much everything written about this conflict. Avoiding nuclear escalation is a major consideration. 

How do you get 'narcissistic' out of "Don't talk to me like I'm a dumb civilian" when you're the one with all the attitude, talking like this is a pissing contest?

It's a debate over just war theory.

You don't do much for your position by throwing ad homs around like that.

It's not a debate lol, it's you saying "he won't drop nukes" ad infinitum and offering your undergrad anthropology course as evidence. I'm saying he might drop nukes, and that's why a guns blazing Desert Storm isn't currently on the table.

MissCommunication said: 

Outro said:

Easy to say from our relative positions, but would you really take that gamble if it was your call to send NATO troops into Ukraine?

Risking nuclear war isn't worth it. Besides, we've war gamed a huge variety of possible outcomes to this (and have been doing so for 20+ years), if NATO intervention looked like the correct path, we'd take it. 

Sometimes I think civilians think these decisions are a coin flip, but strategists, commanders and intelligence agencies have been planning this across multiple administrations for decades. This was a known flash point. 

I think you might be overestimating how clear the line strategists have on this conflict is. There are many diverging opinions among security experts, and current/ex strategists on the correct course of action. Those in the realist school of political thought think capitulating to Putin's security interests and finding a way to mutually de-escalate is the right approach. While many others think a relentless push by the West to punish, isolate and degrade Russia economically, politically and militarily is the best approach. 

Either way, avoiding nuclear escalation is a crucial consideration. What's weird to me is that the West has yet to draw an ethical line indicating what might trigger more direct involvement. The strategy at this point seems to be a slow burn of Russia's military capabilities, which considering he has tactical nukes, seems risky.

Don't get me wrong, I think the way out is very opaque. I don't think anyone honestly knows where this is headed, and I suspect NATO involvement may become an inevitability.

The only thing I believe is crystal clear is that direct NATO involvement at this stage would risk nuclear escalation to the point of being self-defeating. Watch and wait isn't always the most ethically palatable option, but it's better than the apocalypse lmao

No, this is me giving a tried and true argument and you refusing to read or acknowledge it.

Let me state it more explicitly.

All set out in nice neat little syllogisms for you  :P

Joe Biden is willing to go to war with China.

China has nukes.

Therefore Biden is not afraid of nukes.

So I am also not afraid of nukes.

Ruzzia is no more likely to use nukes than China.

Therefore it would appear that this war is being decided by a bunch of people who are more afraid for their stock portfolios than they are for people's lives.

And no, the Ruzzians have lost more than a third of the troops they sent in February.

They've lost between a third and half their equipment (tho I lol when I see the Ukrainians commandeering that shit and using it against them  :)  )

Now is the perfect time.

Actually, 6 weeks ago, before the orcs took Mariupol would have been the perfect time, but w/e.

Every day that passes, the Ukrainians lose more infrastructure, and more of their cities and their people are shattered.

The longer we wait, the more costly it will be to clean up the mess.

MissCommunication said: 

 hmm interesting...do you think the Nazi narrative is failing in Russia? I've met many Ukrainians the past few months. Their absolute anger and hatred of Putin is the starkest characteristic they share. They'll fight to the absolute end.

LiYang said:

 

So the Donbas people do not deserve their freedom from tyranny? They don't deserve the choice of Government?

there will be no nuclear war. "Putin's" war in Ukraine is an American plan for the collapse of the Russian Federation into separate weak subjects. Why didn't the Americans point-blank notice the rise of neo-Nazis in Ukraine? because they needed them to incite hatred between Russians and Ukrainians. denification of ukraine is just a pretext for a protracted war and sanctions that will destroy the russian federation. Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Putin and his oligarchs - they are all traitors to Russia. Ukrainians and Russian soldiers are just consumables. this is Dima's paranoid schizophrenic version and there's nothing you can do about it. :-)

Dima79 said: 

LiYang said:

 

So the Donbas people do not deserve their freedom from tyranny? They don't deserve the choice of Government?

these guys won't get freedom. yes, no one will force them to consider the Nazi Bandera a hero, but they will receive Putin's corrupt oligarchic regime and beggarly pensions and salaries. if someone actively objects to this, he will not get access to fair elections and he will have an excellent chance of ending up in prison. :) they will get the decline of education and medicine. they will get a backward economy, destroyed by Yeltsin. the modern Putin economy is not even capable of producing cars with abs and airbags, bearings for trains and making airplanes without imported parts. not to mention the equipment used in oil and gas production. Putin's economy is not even capable of producing feminine sanitary pads. :)

Yeah, I understand they are trading one tyranny for a form of another. But the ethnic Russians asked for help from other ethnic Russians and they made the choice.

And besides, MAGA America wants this to happen. Cutting the head off the snake of American corruption in Ukraine. Love it! Putin can have it!

Maybe Putin will install his own puppet government in Ukraine. Fuck being the police force of the world. Let the locals deal with it. lol.

LiYang said: 

Dima79 said: 

LiYang said:

 

So the Donbas people do not deserve their freedom from tyranny? They don't deserve the choice of Government?

these guys won't get freedom. yes, no one will force them to consider the Nazi Bandera a hero, but they will receive Putin's corrupt oligarchic regime and beggarly pensions and salaries. if someone actively objects to this, he will not get access to fair elections and he will have an excellent chance of ending up in prison. :) they will get the decline of education and medicine. they will get a backward economy, destroyed by Yeltsin. the modern Putin economy is not even capable of producing cars with abs and airbags, bearings for trains and making airplanes without imported parts. not to mention the equipment used in oil and gas production. Putin's economy is not even capable of producing feminine sanitary pads. :)

Yeah, I understand they are trading one tyranny for a form of another. But the ethnic Russians asked for help from other ethnic Russians and they made the choice.

And besides, MAGA America wants this to happen. Cutting the head off the snake of American corruption in Ukraine. Love it! Putin can have it!

Maybe Putin will install his own puppet government in Ukraine. Fuck being the police force of the world. Let the locals deal with it. lol.

 

 in the end what do we get? pro-Russian citizens get a corrupt Russian regime instead of a corrupt Ukrainian regime. and all this at the cost of thousands of widows, orphans, murdered old people, women, children... where the hell were the UN troops? although...why did the fucking Ukrainians refuse the peace proposal for the federalization of Ukraine? why they abandoned the Minsk agreements they signed? in short...death to these fucking Ukrainians!!! let the cities and regions founded by the Russians become part of Russia. and Bandera and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army are cocksuckers. if you don't believe the Russians, ask the Poles and Jews what they think about these bastards. :) just a question. what do you know about the history of Ukraine? what regions became Ukrainian thanks to the decisions of the bloody communists Lenin, Stalin? what "Ukrainian" cities were founded by Russians? :)

Dima79 said: 

LiYang said: 

Dima79 said: 

LiYang said:

 

So the Donbas people do not deserve their freedom from tyranny? They don't deserve the choice of Government?

these guys won't get freedom. yes, no one will force them to consider the Nazi Bandera a hero, but they will receive Putin's corrupt oligarchic regime and beggarly pensions and salaries. if someone actively objects to this, he will not get access to fair elections and he will have an excellent chance of ending up in prison. :) they will get the decline of education and medicine. they will get a backward economy, destroyed by Yeltsin. the modern Putin economy is not even capable of producing cars with abs and airbags, bearings for trains and making airplanes without imported parts. not to mention the equipment used in oil and gas production. Putin's economy is not even capable of producing feminine sanitary pads. :)

Yeah, I understand they are trading one tyranny for a form of another. But the ethnic Russians asked for help from other ethnic Russians and they made the choice.

And besides, MAGA America wants this to happen. Cutting the head off the snake of American corruption in Ukraine. Love it! Putin can have it!

Maybe Putin will install his own puppet government in Ukraine. Fuck being the police force of the world. Let the locals deal with it. lol.

 

 in the end what do we get? pro-Russian citizens get a corrupt Russian regime instead of a corrupt Ukrainian regime. and all this at the cost of thousands of widows, orphans, murdered old people, women, children... where the hell were the UN troops? although...why did the fucking Ukrainians refuse the peace proposal for the federalization of Ukraine? why they abandoned the Minsk agreements they signed? in short...death to these fucking Ukrainians!!! let the cities and regions founded by the Russians become part of Russia. and Bandera and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army are cocksuckers. if you don't believe the Russians, ask the Poles and Jews what they think about these bastards. :) just a question. what do you know about the history of Ukraine? what regions became Ukrainian thanks to the decisions of the bloody communists Lenin, Stalin? what "Ukrainian" cities were founded by Russians? :)

I know very little about the Ukrainian history, just what I've read recently.

Do you think Putin is returning original Russian lands to Russia?