Sociopath Community

"I know that....perhaps why you are one of few that will delve into the topic..

Did you watch the video?...substitute the compulsion for any other...serves the same purpose for discussion."

I just watched most of it. It was very painful to hear arguments about the sense of agency, and how that sense relates to responsibility, how soft determinists exploit those arguments, and how compatibilists can believe free will can co-exist with determinism. I would really have to go into depth on this, and I'm not sure that I feel like it. But I will give a basic overview.

Hard determinism is the philosophy that there cannot be any such thing as "free will," because all events are interconnected and flow sequentially.

Soft determinists say that one can act "according to their own nature," implying a sense of agency, with no compelling argument for it. These are people that realize all events are interconnected, but use arguments such as "the mind is extremely complex," (see: Daniel Dennett) to argue that our sense of agency is more than a sense.

Then there are the compabilists, also invested in the idea of free will, who apparently can't see how all things being interconnected and bound by the laws of physics makes free will impossible, without even being able to go into the depth of the argument that the soft determinists do.

"Not necessarily..."

Yes, control requires investment. Anything aside from autonomic bodily functions requires investment. Watch a documentary on Morgan Freeman, famous lobotomist. You may see what I mean, specifically when we are discussing personality and agency. The video you posted did delve a bit into this territory (mind = matter), but not much. No action happens without a prior set of circumstances which impels it.

"Disagree here as well."

When you invest yourself in something...you are not only not investing yourself in other things, but also binding yourself to that investment. Therefor, you have limited yourself. Perhaps you felt I was giving a negative connotation to constraint. Without any set of constraints or investments, we would be rather homogeneous, nebulous, and unable to adapt. Investment and constraint are major drives of human behavior and survival.

"You are defining and thinking in terms of possession. That is the problem."

No. I was giving an example.

Tryptamine stated: source post

 

I just watched most of it. It was very painful to hear arguments about the sense of agency, and how that sense relates to responsibility, how soft determinists exploit those arguments, and how compatibilists can believe free will can co-exist with determinism. I would really have to go into depth on this, and I'm not sure that I feel like it. But I will give a basic overview.

Hard determinism is the philosophy that there cannot be any such thing as "free will," because all events are interconnected and flow sequentially.

Soft determinists say that one can act "according to their own nature," implying a sense of agency, with no compelling argument for it. These are people that realize all events are interconnected, but use arguments such as "the mind is extremely complex," (see: Daniel Dennett) to argue that our sense of agency is nothing other then a sense.

Then there are the compabilists, also invested in the idea of free will, who apparently can't see how all things being interconnected and bound by the laws of physics makes free will impossible, without even going into the depth of the argument that the soft determinists do.

Mmmmhmm....I don't worry about or give it much thought...lol...as it changes nothing.

 

Yes, control requires investment. Anything aside from autonomic bodily functions requires investment. Watch a documentary on Morgan Freeman, famous lobotomist. You may see what I mean, specifically when we are discussing personality and agency. The video you posted did delve a bit into this territory (mind = matter), but not much. No action happens without a prior set of circumstances which impels it.

Personality vs agency....No actions without thoughts

"Disagree here as well."

When you invest yourself in something...you are not only not investing yourself in other things, but also binding yourself to that investment. Therefor, you have limited yourself. Perhaps you felt I was giving a negative connotation to constraint. Without any set of constraints or investments, we would be rather homogeneous, nebulous, and unable to adapt. Investment and constraint are major drives of human behavior and survival.

Maybe...depends the person I suppose and the value inherent to their perspective or desired outcome. Could be nothing as well...the fun of it...to see what happens...something to do. 

"You are defining and thinking in terms of possession. That is the problem."

No. I was giving an example.

OK

"If you learn to control these factors, you gain the freedom to choose to control them. How is that not freedom? If you did not learn to control them, you have less freedom, as you have no choice, but to not control them."

Because you were never free to make those choices in the first place. Do you arrive at conclusions randomly? Do you perform behaviors without any cause?

"Working is also a choice. If you didn't have the choice to work, you would only have the choice to be unemployed(with all the negative consequences). The problem you define is not that this is not freedom, its just not ultimate freedom. If you have even more control, you can have even more freedom."

Putting aside determinism...I erase it from my head for a moment for what may be a more meaningful response. Rich or poor, powerful or meek, all people have an unimaginable amount of freedom and possible actions. Unless they are in prison, or being held as sex slaves, etc.

"Having the ability to invest is freedom. You can invest, or not invest. Its however not ultimate freedom. Ultimate freedom is to do both and its impossible. Each choice has consequences. The freedom is in the ability to have a choice. Or more precisely, the level to which you have a choice."

What I was saying was, investing in something is effectively a narrowing of freedom. You are free to make a choice, but once that choice has been made, you have lost the freedom you possessed before making that decision, and the freedom that it possessed. You have turned down other potentials in favor of a certain one. Each action has this consequence.

"Personality vs agency....No actions without thoughts"

I was speaking more in terms of how the hulking conglomeration of chemical reactions that make up this universe constitutes both your personality, and your sense of agency. If you don't believe me, try replying to this on nitrous oxide.

Not a question of belief...lol....I know that is the case....while at the same time, it is what I have to work with....and has served me rather well. 

Primal stated: source post

Turncoat stated: source post

There's that dreaded "R" word again. You've used that word at least five times today already. Once you're on that train you're prone to shutting out other ideas. 

Yep...it' brutal. I am comfy with it. 'Other ideas often bullshit...Like, seriously fucked up. So, it's not hard to shut bullshit out.

Is anything other than you defining what is and isn't bullshit though? Your style of walls are a dangerous thing to have if you ever go off the deep end, and it's in general a hindrance when it comes to learning new things or visiting another's perspective. 
 

What does that have to do with anything? It's still a person, and the cartoon characters were written by people. 

I can pull whack out my ass for a character...

Anyone could, but does that mean that they are? Often times an author will use characters they've made up to get a point across about real life topics. 
 

How does it not make sense that someone could flip out once they recognize their own insignificance? 

Are you kidding me? That is obvious...lol...

So it does make sense that someone would flip out about that? How is an existential crisis not a thing then? 
 

As for the topic itself... Blah blah freedom is a myth blah blah determinism blah blah we don't really control anything blah blah blah fate yada yada yada self control beliefs are pure ego. It's a rerun argument on my part. 

I remember our previous discussions....you went off into the ether...

Just because it's not your way of thinking doesn't make it bullshit. 

So it does make sense that someone would flip out about that? How is an existential crisis not a thing then? 

No...it is not a thing...lol....we are not even dust in the cosmos of reality...nothing...that. is. all. 

When it's bullshit , it's bullshit...when you can give me a logical and reasonable explanation backed with facts....then ...but not before. 

Primal stated: source post

No...it is not a thing...lol....we are not even dust in the cosmos of reality...nothing...that. is. all. 

"But what about me!?"

​/cue existential crisis