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Posts: 1566
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

Believe in yourself, people and reason, these believes have never failed me, not even in the smallest details.

 

The reason there are so many religions, is because of the fear of the unknown, the curiosity people have, the need for people to control everything so they can feel secure and their need to have an explanation combined. That way you can explain the world, have safety, you are not afraid of what you do not understand, like death or bad weather and you think you can directly control the world around you.

We have curiously and a need for explanation in us, so we can adapt better. And this is where our humanity truly is. You must stay and always believe in the purity of reason, even when you are under heavy siege, and once you regain your reason, you will see why.

 

Its in extreme situations when the human body shows what an amazing fine tuned machine it is. In fact this is the only thing that can make me thing there was a creator, its just awesome machinery. But it also took a long time and its more probable there is no creator of this marvelous machine. At extreme situations the body really wants to survive and will use all of its resources and you can do some amazing feats of straight that even professional athletes can't under normal situations. Who knows what else happens to make you feel more empowered to survive, i mean probably someone does know, but that ain't me.

 

And ofc, THE GOD EMPEROR AND THE IMPERIUM OF MAN IS ABOVE ALL!

Posts: 1564
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

Who knows what else happens to make you feel more empowered to survive, i mean probably someone does know, but that ain't me.

....yeah..you  know...

Posts: 5426
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

Virus stated: source post

 

Edvard stated: source post

I've had my share of brushes with death, and the weird thing is they're in big part the reason why I'm not an atheist. In those moments, in my most difficult moments, I felt something giving me strength or protecting me.

Even when I declared myself an Atheist I always had this feeling you are describing... at the worst times... I was never afraid or worried... weird.

Yeah, exactly.

 

Throughout my daily endeavors I am actively looking where I can help people, Ed... even if it is just holding the door open for someone or assisting a person with their hands full from shopping get their wares to their vehicle.  Or maybe a ride for an old fella walking down the rode... it could be buying someone food or helping them with a heavy project... and just about everyone I have mentioned have been and will be a complete stranger... I work with underprivileged kids (I get to know them) whose homes are fucked... I check in on some elders around the community ( I know them)... all this brings me joy...

In my past I have been a really bad dude... don't feel like being a really bad dude no more...

You don't sound like a bad dude at all. Helping out is to be admired. The selfish "I don't give a damn" attitude is all too easy.

Posts: 1892
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

Edvard stated: source post

You don't sound like a bad dude at all. Helping out is to be admired. The selfish "I don't give a damn" attitude is all too easy.

Learning new technique to life... efforts are paying off... thanks, Ed. 

Posts: 2216
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

ThenFuckit stated: source post

Believe in yourself, people and reason, these believes have never failed me, not even in the smallest details.

 

Its in extreme situations when the human body shows what an amazing fine tuned machine it is. In fact this is the only thing that can make me thing there was a creator, its just awesome machinery. But it also took a long time and its more probable there is no creator of this marvelous machine. At extreme situations the body really wants to survive and will use all of its resources and you can do some amazing feats of straight that even professional athletes can't under normal situations. Who knows what else happens to make you feel more empowered to survive, i mean probably someone does know, but that ain't me.


So you believe an unconscious force can produce masterpieces beyond our own ability and without any direction over extended periods over time.

 

Posts: 1566
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

thats where the evidence points at and thats where i will point at, until reason favors a different solution

Also, those 'machines' are not beyond our own ability, only beyond our current ability.

Posts: 4
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

Your summary happens to make for a fairly good syllogism. The problem with Hume is that he oversimplifies matters. His argument assumes that the destruction of evil always serves good. Also one has to assume that God, in his infinite wisdom, perceives evil just as man does. Evil might serve a purpose beyond human understanding. Durkheim said that a mark of a healthy society requires a certain level of deviance. It is sort of a Darwinian self-regulation.

And logically, good cannot exist without evil. From a Taoist perspective, even good has its evils. If God eliminated what we consider evil, we would simply have a lower standard of what constitutes evil.

Calvin's argument is moot. Whether or not souls are predestined for salvation, the end result is the same. It's a "chicken-or-the-egg" problem. On one hand, God looks through all of time to determine which souls will accept salvation, sends his son to earth as a blood sacrifice for their sins, then when those people accept that sacrifice they are allowed into heaven. On the other hand, he does all that and then waits to see what happens and the EXACT same people are the only ones affected.

I'm not religious, but I was raised with heavy protestant indoctrination. i'm not advocating either viewpoint. I'm just pointing out the logical inadequacies. It's kind of like people that say God is omnipotent, but evolution could not have happened. If God can do anything, he could have made evolution.

And thank you Xena for taking what was devolving into an exercise in homophobic adolescence and bringing it back to something more cerebral. And thanks to the OP for the tantalizing food for thought. :D

Posts: 1892
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

Sherlock007 stated: source post

Calvin's argument is moot. Whether or not souls are predestined for salvation, the end result is the same. It's a "chicken-or-the-egg" problem. On one hand, God looks through all of time to determine which souls will accept salvation, sends his son to earth as a blood sacrifice for their sins, then when those people accept that sacrifice they are allowed into heaven. On the other hand, he does all that and then waits to see what happens and the EXACT same people are the only ones affected.

Quite an oversimplification...

I'm not religious, but I was raised with heavy protestant indoctrination. i'm not advocating either viewpoint. I'm just pointing out the logical inadequacies. It's kind of like people that say God is omnipotent, but evolution could not have happened. If God can do anything, he could have made evolution.

Bogus argument I agree... limited by man's mind...

And thank you Xena for taking what was devolving into an exercise in homophobic adolescence and bringing it back to something more cerebral. And thanks to the OP for the tantalizing food for thought. :D

You're welcome...

Posts: 2216
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

ThenFuckit stated: source post

thats where the evidence points at and thats where i will point at, until reason favors a different solution

Also, those 'machines' are not beyond our own ability, only beyond our current ability.

 

Current ability is moderate ability. It's where the barrier is set.  No engine, no airplane. As far as biochemistry goes, we borrow materials, DNA etc....

There's no evidence of evolution without guidance. Not in your lifetime, before it, or beyond will you ever see something come of nothing, no matter how much time you give it.

 

 

Posts: 4
Total Depravity, Limited Atonement, and Sociopathy...

Interesting point.....but appears it is confused with some projection of your own by the read of it. You and I have discussed this in past....by the way side...and again, I disagree with your interpretation as as it provides the 'excuse' and lacks accountability ...no sale here....

'Emotions' don't correct behaviors....CHOICE in action does....

But that was the whole point of the distinction between man and angels and the original sin. Man CHOSE to act against the will of God. Suppose that God created Angels as beings who inherently recognize his godhood. They don't have a choice. Their sole reason for existence is to worship God. Well that isn't very edifying. Rather like creating a robot to tell you how amazing you are. But man was created with a spark of divinity; that part of God that is self-determining. So man was able to choose whether or not to recognize God's deity and whether or not to obey him. One might even argue that choosing to disobey was implicit denial of his deity, since why else would you purposefully disobey God? I mean, if he's God he knows best and is infallible. Anything less and he's not God.

So if the Genesis account is correct and Adam literally walked and talked with God and could do anything in the whole world but eat fruit from one tree, yet still voluntarily disobeyed that one command which thus denied God's deity, why would he do so? He said he was compelled by the woman God gave him, which we can infer was an emotional appeal. Eve ate the fruit because of the temptation from the serpent, which was essentially an appeal to vanity via intellect. Well is that not a case of two different types of emotions overruling reason and obvious fact? Then man's spark of divinity cannot be the power to choose when emotion often overcomes reason, even under ideal circumstances.

Perhaps then the divine spark is the human capacity for emotion. The implication then is if we lack the capacity for emotion, are we created in God's image as well? And if only humans were created in God's image, then what are we? By that measure, the only remaining option is angelic. And there are two kinds of angels; those who are compelled to recognize God's divinity and those who fell to pride, which we would call demons.

As it happens, I don't take any of this seriously. One must consider the use of founding myths in any religion, so the metaphysical deduction is only a philosophical exercise. I believe that we are simply carbon-based lifeforms who have developed comparatively large brains and all the complex interactions and disorders that come with it. Our existence is an act of survival of a species and punctuated by mutations which either improve our suitability for our environment or don't. Sometimes it means some of us have blue eyes. Other times it means that some of us develop personality disorders. Sometimes that works out for us, and sometimes it doesn't. Where choice enters into the real picture is in the cost/benefit analysis of possible actions, our failure to properly weigh those options, our lack of correct information about those options, our priority of fullfilling needs, or our physical inability to adapt accordingly.

Everything in our reality is merely a competition for resources. It is what drives racism, class division, politics, war, corporate greed, and every other so-called evil in the world. To choose evil is to choose to put one's own acquisition of excess in opposition to the benefit of the system as a whole. By that measure, we are all guilty of evil. Conversely, we do good if we bring people together and put the good of the group ahead of our own selfish desires. Those of us with AsPD are incapable of acting altruistically, but we are able to recognize how being completely selfish diminishes our society and therefore ultimately is to our detriment. In essence, we CHOOSE to do right rather than feel an emotional imperative or social pressure to conform. In that sense, are we not immune to the pitfall of Adam? And are we not beyond cultural adaptations to which compel us to do good? After all, what is empathy if not an evolutionary adaptation for social creatures to be able to coexist voluntarily in peace? And when that adaptation is no longer conducive to productive coexistence, wouldn't we see it being selected against while others of our species transcend that specialization?

Basically, I suspect that AsPD has a large genetic component, and that what we are seeing could be the next step in human evolution. Or maybe that is just my narcissism seeping out. But it stands to reason that if we are free from our emotions, and emotions caused the original sin/modern acts of evil, and that we are capable of reasoning the correct choice for the good of our species, well AsPD is a step up from NON's in that respect.

I apologize if I'm not articulating this coherently. I haven't slept in a couple days and, having just stumbled on this site, I'm afraid I'm waxing poetic in my sudden infatuation of the forum. Great topic though, and terrific discussions!

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