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Posts: 3246
Moral relativism of evil

"It's as i said. Social construct is an invention. Despite the text you've inserted, your source indicates that social construct remains largely an invention. The illusion of social constructs appearing natural, is the simple fact people understand them."

Yes, largely an invention. Morality develops from an instinct. This instinct causes men to create moral constructs. When you look at the constructs themselves, they cannot be explained entirely by social conditioning...Biology shows us that both altruism and selfishness are normal—and often carefully genetically balanced—tendencies in social animals. Men create and live by morals. Again, no one had suggested that the moral impulse was invented by man, as you presumed others were, when you said "even dogs have morality."

The reason why the word I've emphasized the word "largely" is because, especially in the case of morality, other factors are at play. Primarily, the moral instinct. The instinct flourishes into a manifold of forms, all of which are inescapable from social constructs. No one has claimed that man "invented morality."

"It's instinct > social construct. Why undermine the source that driven the product to manifestation ?"

How have I undermined it?

"What social constructs produce is only ideological which can serve any master, that is good or bad, or even fictional, or set rules for some game etc. . Morality on the other hand, in itself is not a rule we can simply edit, due to "the principle of causality."

Morality suffers from all the criticism you have about social constructs. Which makes perfect sense, as morality is, after all, a social construct.

"European Christians once started killing cats, because they believed they were evil. Because they believed what they were doing was moral never made it so, due to the fact there was no actual good coming of it. They ended up with a rat infestation before they stopped killing cats, but that's another story."

That would be an example of morality causing problems for its own practitioners.

Define the difference between, as you say, "The moral instinct, and morality"

The moral instinct is an innate drive. It impels social animals to live harmoniously with those who they affiliate with. Its range can extend beyond the spectrum of average in/out group mechanics as demonstrated by forms of altruism and selfishness. Morality is the set of beliefs and emotions corresponding to how the moral drive processes environment. It manifests itself in countless shapes across the world.

"So i have to prove that no one is perfect, and how everyone makes mistakes and it's how we actually are ?"

We are all perfectly as we must be. You could be nothing more in this very moment than what you are. I thought I was the pessimist...

"I also have to prove how immorality obstructs progress and derails environments ?"

I am sure there are many philosophies that stand diametric to your own, with volumes of arguments better than "no one is perfect." But you haven't really fleshed out exactly what "immorality" is to you. Knowing you, I'd wager that utilitarianism, consumerism, pragmatism, hedonism, forms of existentialism, and Machiavelliansim all stand in contrast to your beliefs.

"Regardless if what they believed, they were ACTUALLY practicing the destruction of their own species. That is degenerate behavior."

It doesn't matter if I agree or not. It's still an opinion that it's "degenerate behavior." The point is that morals are relative. Your mind cannot seem to wrap around the fact that all morals are relative to one-another, and none have primacy. We simply live by the ideals we find most suitable.

Posts: 2216
Moral relativism of evil

Tryptamine stated: source post

"Social Construct is invention. This is non debatable."

"In the domain of social constructionist thought, a social construct is an idea or notion that appears to be natural and obvious to people who accept it but may or may not represent reality, so it remains largely [my italics—in the case of morality, instincts are at play as well] an invention or artifice of a given society." (Source)

 

It's as i said. Social construct is an invention. Despite the text you've inserted, your source indicates that social construct remains largely an invention. The illusion of social constructs appearing natural, is the simple fact people understand them.

 

It makes perfect sense to me that morality is a social construct driven by instinct, although I can see this being rendered incomprehensible when processed by a mind that genuinely thinks it understands "the objective truth."

It's instinct > social construct. Why undermine the source that driven the product to manifestation ?

What social constructs produce is only ideological which can serve any master, that is good or bad, or even fictional, or set rules for some game etc. . Morality on the other hand, in itself is not a rule we can simply edit, due to "the principle of causality."

European Christians once started killing cats, because they believed they were evil. Because they believed what they were doing was moral never made it so, due to the fact there was no actual good coming of it. They ended up with a rat infestation before they stopped killing cats, but that's another story.

 

"Actually, you said something on the contrary, as you claimed it was evident that I did not understand Inq. That IS on the contrary Tryptamine."

The issue is that you were speaking of the moral instinct itself, evinced by when you said, "Even dogs have a sense of morality Inq." There is a difference between the moral instinct and morality. One develops into the other.

Define the difference between, as you say, "The moral instinct, and morality"

I'd argue they are one in the same, but on that note, the instinct comes first, and it's not something we've invented.

 

"As for the real morality. It has unlimited amounts of value compared to that because forgiveness is included. All human beings develop from trial and error, sometimes we do bad things, face consequences then we move away from it, in many cases to become better."

You have yet to prove how your morality is the objectively "correct" one.

So i have to prove that no one is perfect, and how everyone makes mistakes and it's how we actually are ?

I also have to prove how immorality obstructs progress and derails environments ?

Are you even unaware of the truth in that paragraph you're prosecuting ? You need proof of that ?

 

"The Written law of man does not govern what is moral and what is not. If it became legal to rape others, that does not mean it is moral. If a nation commits genocide due to bigotry, that does not make it moral. No matter what side or what level man's law is written, it doesn't alter what is good and bad for our species."

When a vast majority of a nation is told and convinced it is "right" to burn "degenerate" books, and it is "right," to have an ethnic cleansing...Then they do these things of their own volition because they see them as "right," that is changing morality. Many Nazi guards at concentration camps felt they were doing no wrong. They believed they were executing subhumans, and that it was the morally right thing to do for the German people.

 

Regardless if what they believed, they were ACTUALLY practicing the destruction of their own species. That is degenerate behavior.

There's such thing as half Jewish, half German people out there. It's not just to their knowledge how immoral the concept of the holocaust is. Hitler himself had Jewish ancestry too, which of course was key to his being, but that doesn't make his immorality any more or less profound in it's entirety.

If the German's continued to carry on as they did, the world would have obliterated them. Had they been obliterated, that would have been the effect of dividing themselves from the human race. The Nazi's moral relativism was as counterfeit as any moral relativism, and it would remain so, even if they succeeded in world domination.

 

 

 

Posts: 2216
Moral relativism of evil

That's pretty much what I've been saying. Morality by no means is a man made concept. At best we create customs and etiquette that may or my not promote the mechanisms that ensure we're not quick to end ourselves.

I especially like the part where it was written...

"In contrast, judgment of emotionally evocative, but non-moral statements activated the left amygdala, lingual gyri, and the lateral orbital gyrus. These findings provide new evidence that the orbitofrontal cortex has dedicated subregions specialized in processing specific forms of social behavior."

.

.

.

The brain has dedicated sub regions specialized in processing specific forms of social behavior.

What we call morality is rigged to prevail, and it has prevailed long before any man can claim it as a social construct.

 

 

 

Posts: 2216
Moral relativism of evil

Inquirer stated: source post

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Inquirer stated: source post

There are rankings and indexes that measure that sort of thing. Link me one or I'll consider your claim untrue.

Child of Sweden.  You're displaying a spoiled behavior which is also associated with lesser awareness.

If you make a claim it's your responsibility to prove it. If I make a claim it's mine. How is that not a fair division of responsibility?

 

Every time I want proof of what others say, I go and retrieve the data myself. As for you, you're asking me to define the American dream. I did define it. You then asked me to link you another source. I googled it for you, and there you'll see a definition, followed by links that also support my claim.

Now it's been days later, and you're stuck on the same subject, demanding that I provide you links.

I will not go back and bring the link here, you can do that. Also, if you're not like me and used the search engine at your fingertips to do research, then you're forcing me to look down on you, cause I don't wait for you and anyone to fetch information for me when I can get it done quicker than asking someone else for it.

If you have too much pride to find out the definition of the American dream on your own. You're not qualified to debate me.

 

 

 

Moral relativism is based on personal opinion. One of it's characteristics is that 2 people are free to oppose and debate what is moral for the sake of democracy. That's why this kind of flexibility is highly prone to error. Morality on the other hand holds more consideration for what is true, as opposed to varying degrees of excused selfishness.

I agree with this up till the bolded part. Moral relativism is not selfish, same way absolute morality isn't. They are just rules. It might be easier to twist relative morality for selfish gains however.

Moral relativism is twisted to begin with, and it has been so throughout the ages. It changes from scene to scene which is why it's prone to human error, just as it's always been. It's a change of rules, which in all honesty, we do not write the rules of what's best for us as a species. You really can't get away with saying moral relativism is not selfish, then turn around and say it might be easier to twist it for selfish gain, because it totally can be twisted for selfish gain, and it's always for the gain of some agenda that wants things their way, and not the way it was made for everyone.

 

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

It's just a point I made and after the 3rd time you get it and agree, I did say the first time you wouldn't notice it. Now you say I'm arguing it but it was you who forced me to revisit it over and over again, while I already said not everyone is immoral.

Too much entertainment is bad for you.

I understood your point from the start but I don't think it's a good, supporting argument to your claim that morality is receding, which is what I've been trying to say for quite some time now.

Even you admitted that you've been desensitized by entertainment. It just doesn't mean much to you, and why would it ? You're desensitized.

 

Prove 'too much entertainment is bad for you'.

There you go again.

You will either remain in doubt, or you'll be curious enough to learn common sense and research basic information for yourself.

 

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Does the force behind this creation have to be intelligent ? It's absolutely without a doubt is more ingenious than we are.

...

It has to be vastly intelligent, otherwise intelligence as you know it couldn't and wouldn't exist.

What is your definition of intelligence? Does it have to be conscious and aware of itself?

If I start attacking you, understand it's because I want you to smarten up. I said vastly intelligent, digest it.

 

The beauty of life, as I see it, is that a few simple rules can lead to such complexity. Ingeniousness isn't necessary; just movement and a lot of building blocks.

 

 Engineer a creature we've never seen before, and you WILL BE most ingenious.

Make a flea from scratch, and once again you'll be the smartest human being in the world, especially if you do this by yourself.

By the time you're once again programming atoms to manifest as DNA, and coding it into making a new race of human being, you wouldn't even bother to go out of your way to collect yet another Noble prize.

The only thing that's definite with unguided movement and a lot of building blocks is destruction, no matter how many blocks and how much time is put into it.

 

 

Posts: 3246
Moral relativism of evil

My post was actually meant to address everything we went over, but I had accidentally submitted it after the first paragraph. I see we agree on the basic idea of what morality is. And I don't see the point in arguing about relativism anymore. So I think I'll just leave what I had at that.

Posts: 1259
Moral relativism of evil

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Every time I want proof of what others say, I go and retrieve the data myself. As for you, you're asking me to define the American dream. I did define it. You then asked me to link you another source. I googled it for you, and there you'll see a definition, followed by links that also support my claim.

Now it's been days later, and you're stuck on the same subject, demanding that I provide you links.

I will not go back and bring the link here, you can do that. Also, if you're not like me and used the search engine at your fingertips to do research, then you're forcing me to look down on you, cause I don't wait for you and anyone to fetch information for me when I can get it done quicker than asking someone else for it.

If you have too much pride to find out the definition of the American dream on your own. You're not qualified to debate me.

I keep spelling things out for you and yet you don't seem to understand. Your definition is too vague. I can't quantify it or measure it, and thus it's a bad argument. I feel I have to be this explicit with you because you're impossible to debate otherwise. Why are you fighting my attempts to clarify the points of contention?

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

You really can't get away with saying moral relativism is not selfish, then turn around and say it might be easier to twist it for selfish gain, because it totally can be twisted for selfish gain, and it's always for the gain of some agenda that wants things their way, and not the way it was made for everyone.

You continue to mix up theory with practice. Moral relativism as a theory isn't selfish; it has nothing to do with it. In practice it might be more susceptible to hypocrisy and selfishness however.

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Inquirer stated: source post

Prove 'too much entertainment is bad for you'.

There you go again.

You will either remain in doubt, or you'll be curious enough to learn common sense and research basic information for yourself.

Unless you support your claims with verifiable reasons/proof all you have is an opinion, don't you get that? Opinions don't mean much.

Did you go "because common sense derp" when doing exams back in school too?

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Inquirer stated: source post

What is your definition of intelligence? Does it have to be conscious and aware of itself?

If I start attacking you, understand it's because I want you to smarten up. I said vastly intelligent, digest it.

You really don't like defining your claims, huh?

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Engineer a creature we've never seen before, and you WILL BE most ingenious.

If I take a random creature and change one gene (which we can) it's a brand new creature, no? Am I now 'most ingenious'?

Engineering ripples in a pond with a stick could be considered 'ingenious' from a certain perspective. Perfect little waves, pulsating outwards in harmonic rhythm. It does not matter if I handle that stick with the grace of someone having an epileptic seizure; it still happens.

You keep arguing without defining anything. What is new? What is complex? What is intelligent? What is ingenious? What exactly is absolute morality? What exactly is immorality? Etc. Put a number to these things.

Posts: 1259
Moral relativism of evil

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Inquirer stated: source post

There are rankings and indexes that measure that sort of thing. Link me one or I'll consider your claim untrue.

Child of Sweden.  You're displaying a spoiled behavior which is also associated with lesser awareness.

If you make a claim it's your responsibility to prove it. If I make a claim it's mine. How is that not a fair division of responsibility?

 

 

Moral relativism is based on personal opinion. One of it's characteristics is that 2 people are free to oppose and debate what is moral for the sake of democracy. That's why this kind of flexibility is highly prone to error. Morality on the other hand holds more consideration for what is true, as opposed to varying degrees of excused selfishness.

I agree with this up till the bolded part. Moral relativism is not selfish, same way absolute morality isn't. They are just rules. It might be easier to twist relative morality for selfish gains however.

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

It's just a point I made and after the 3rd time you get it and agree, I did say the first time you wouldn't notice it. Now you say I'm arguing it but it was you who forced me to revisit it over and over again, while I already said not everyone is immoral.

Too much entertainment is bad for you.

I understood your point from the start but I don't think it's a good, supporting argument to your claim that morality is receding, which is what I've been trying to say for quite some time now.

Prove 'too much entertainment is bad for you'.

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Does the force behind this creation have to be intelligent ? It's absolutely without a doubt is more ingenious than we are.

...

It has to be vastly intelligent, otherwise intelligence as you know it couldn't and wouldn't exist.

What is your definition of intelligence? Does it have to be conscious and aware of itself?

The beauty of life, as I see it, is that a few simple rules can lead to such complexity. Ingeniousness isn't necessary; just movement and a lot of building blocks.

Posts: 1259
Moral relativism of evil

moonshine stated: source post

If we presume an omnipotent God -  would he be able to alter that ratio? If so, would a circle be still a circle?  Could he alter the ratio between its diameter and circumference while not altering the circle?

Can God create a stone so heavy that even he himself couldn't lift it? Infinity is 'magical' to us, but I'd claim an omnipotent God is even more magical and thus less probable. Given what we know today, of course.

Posts: 1581
Moral relativism of evil

Once it ceases to be sweet, it's undergone a change

This applies to pretty much everything - pretty much everything ceases to be sweet after a while.

Posts: 1259
Moral relativism of evil

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Inquirer stated: source post

Unless you support your claims with verifiable reasons/proof all you have is an opinion, don't you get that? Opinions don't mean much.

Well you want me to prove how too much entertainment is bad for us.

...

You ought to know that, and it really doesn't require much intuition to know, too much of anything is not good, no matter how sweet it is.

This is you in a nutshell. After weeks of asking you to clarify your claim that morality in general is receding this is what I get.

 

American dream (your link):

  1. 1. the ideals of freedom, equality, and opportunity traditionally held to be available to every American.
  2. 2. a life of personal happiness and material comfort as traditionally sought by individuals in the U.S.

 

Given this (vague) definition all I can say is that in my opinion Libya did not reach the levels of freedom, equality, opportunity, happiness and material comfort that Americans did (if you sum them up). And I don't find any articles or sources online claiming they ever did.

Axed and summarized from wikipedia: Due to reforms under Gaddafi Libya's Human Development Index in 2010 was the highest in Africa and greater than that of Saudi Arabia. Yet it provided very few political and civil rights for its citizens. According to the 2009 Freedom of the Press Index, Libya was the most censored country in the Middle East and North Africa. It managed this through laws such as Law 75 of 1973 which made dissent illegal.

Gaddafi did some good things, yes, but you said "Libya was the best place in the world to live at one point" and "Gaddafi's Libya was too good to be true by western definitions of a great nation". I do not think Americans (or any westerners) would call the above "too good to be true" or compare it to the American dream.

So I think you failed in your attempt to paint the west as morally corrupt (because of moral relativism) by pointing to Libya. And to reiterate: I don't consider toppling Gaddafi's regime 'good', neither in a moral nor a Machiavellian sense of the word.

In order to show that absolute morality would be better than relative morality in this instance you'd have to a) define your version of absolute morality, b) show that it actually can work (and stick) in practice and c) explain how corner cases (free speech or hate crime etc.) would be resolved.

 

Spatial Mind stated: source post

Here's the thing though. You want to pop quiz everything I mention, not because you don't understand it, but probably because you want to see if you can bait me in some way. Or am I suppose to believe you cannot define intelligence ?

Asking for definitions on every single key word in the middle of debate. Wooster never did that, Tryptamine never did that, and even Mr. Omega never did that. If you did that on stage you'd lose, just as you are here. It's the mark of a procrastinator.

See how progressive the other posts are ? There's no overkill on asking one another to clarify if they know the meaning of the topic at hand. I see them using all kinds of fancy words, I don't demand for them to link me a page so I can figure out what it means, I go and look it up for myself.

Over killing questions really never worked out for you.

The other members give up on debating with you far earlier than I do, that's why. They get the gist of what you're saying and decide it's not in their best interest to beat their heads bloody against a wall.

I'm pushing for definitions because I've tried and failed to have meaningful debates with you in the past. You claim a number of things that go against "common sense" (as defined by the scientific establishment) and yet it's surprisingly difficult (or not) to get you to back them up with anything that can be measured or tested. I can't prove you're wrong if you don't give me anything concrete.

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