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Posts: 1259
White Trash

If you're interested in discussing the topic of corporal punishment you should leave Sweden's policy on refugees out of it. Like Tryptamine said the situation is entirely different from the one in Canada.

I'll give you that group-think in Sweden is rather strong, but that brings with it both pros and cons. For example, politics in Sweden have traditionally been consensus-orientated (as opposed to polemic) as a result.

It's also true that the current generation of kids and young adults in Sweden has been spoiled and probably lacked proper discipline from parents, and from society in general. But this does not necessarily equate to a lack of corporal punishment, and if there are other alternatives to be found I think we should prefer those to physically disciplining children.

"Time outs and trying to reason with those children don't work. Corporal punishment is 100% so long as the punishment promotes respect for others."

How do you know this?

Posts: 2216
White Trash

"It's amazing how you would rather refrain from talking about Sweden's policy on refugees as your society pressures you not to."

"Our refugee policy is the number one talked about issue in Sweden and has been for quite some time. The reason I'd rather skip it is because it has nothing to do with corporal punishment."

If you'd rather just skip it, then do that, and leave it to debate 1. Because Sweden was brought up as a role model for 46 other countries, I had to bring up the nature of you government is to leave the nature into submissiveness, as they are highly prone to error.

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"When Sweden makes a turn for the better, it won't be without be a polemic orientated revolution."

That's your personal theory.

Out with the old, in with the new. Change is always comprised of a different idea. Your government does nothing to fix this.

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"From the time corporal punishment has been outlawed, the effects of it has arrived right on cue. Or are we to believe how this is just one gigantic coincidence ?"

The change in attitudes that brought on a ban on corporal punishment in 1979 was part of a larger egalitarian 'movement' (hippies, anti-Vietnam War sentiments, leftist ideologies etc.) and this has left a mark on Sweden. Corporal punishment is only a tiny part of this sweeping change, which is why it's strange that you single it out as the main reason for the so-called 'spoiled' generation(s) we see today.

What other attributes do you suggest contributed to this spoiled generation, besides the law preventing parents from forcing compliance and attitude training on their children ?

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"When someone is punished for the wrong reasons, it will always seem irrational from day one. Reasons that were beyond the child's control, or reasons that weren't their fault or doing. These will create resentment for the parent from the child. This is abuse and not disciplinary action."

"There are studies that show that children don't always have the intellectual capacity to understand why something's wrong and why they shouldn't do it. I don't think beating them will help them understand better."

That's the thing with some of you. It's believed that the child is beat first, or the parent has no idea what their child knows to be right or wrong.

If a child is beat for reasons they themselves don't understand. The parent never educated them or made sure they weren't already educated on the matter, in that case it's abuse, and it will create resentment that will later detach the child from parent.

Most parents in the world beat their kids, and it's not about the child all of a sudden becoming smarter, or the Universe all of a sudden uploads unseen knowledge into the child's head. 

Those who are disturbed about getting beat when they were children had abusive parents. They are the ones willing to take part in studies, just like the people who are willing to write reviews on a product, are always the ones who had a bad experience with it.

 

Posts: 10218
White Trash

"As it turns out, the physically disciplined grow up with more to laugh about."
From those I've met among the physically disciplined they more often than not tended to have either rage issues (internalized or externalized), repression tendencies, and/or depression while being quicker to respond to things physically, very much like how someone can shift from having to deal with a bully. They also seem more prone to transference risk while possessing less patience when emotional. Of course, that could be what they're like from genetics, seeing as that sort of personality might be more prone to beating someone instead of talking it out.

My life with the folks was pretty much what Tryp said, and considering the sort of unstable I could have been I'd say it worked rather well:
"I see what you are saying, but perhaps there are good alternatives to beating children? Like creating incentives for positive behavior? Creating temporary restrictions for negative behaviors? Having the patience to explain things to them? Children ask "why?" so often because they are trying to make sense of the world...it is important that parents thoughtfully answer them, instead of giving throwaway responses (I have seen this a lot). Most importantly, parents very early on should be trying to connect at an emotional level with their children, and maintain that bond."

Edit:
"Alcohol was once a crime and there were masses who were against it solely for that reason. Now alcohol's legal and people are fine with it more than they are about weed."

Prohibition made for a large increase in crime and rebellion. I'd say this is closer to an example of why laws people don't like don't work than an example of law-themed conformity.

"When someone is punished for the wrong reasons, it will always seem irrational from day one. Reasons that were beyond the child's control, or reasons that weren't their fault or doing. These will create resentment for the parent from the child. This is abuse and not disciplinary action."
Many people when challenged like this respond with further rebellion regardless of if they're in the right or the wrong.

Posts: 3246
White Trash

"The bigger question is, how does parenting methods relate to ones upbringing in society ? What I pointed out there is people's willingness to follow whatever the law tells them. In this case a traditional parenting method has been outlawed, and the masses became complaint."

Last I heard, the Sweden Democrats has become the highest-polling political party in Sweden, which would imply the population there is not compliant with the status quo, and wants some major changes. As someone who follows world events, but is not intimately familiar with Sweden as a Swede or scholar of Sweden would be, I can only speak with limited perspective.

"Okay. But this thread is about white trash, and I use the term white cause 95% of the time when they spiral out of control, it's white kids. Time outs and trying to reason with those children don't work. Corporal punishment is 100% so long as the punishment promotes respect for others."

How do you know that the issue isn't bad parenting itself? Many kids are being raised on TVs and neglected. I think all of us here can agree on that. You said yourself: "The world is becoming a train wreck. Even our entertainment is considerably far out in the modern norm." Think of how that might affect what a kid sees on TV. I also related to what you said there with a story about how rampant desensitization has become...literally to a point where people don't recognize they're desensitized. I imagine you could see how this desensitization can also cause problems in the home.

"Absolutely.

Sweden in particular has a 60% approval rating for the war on cannabis too. It's not only happening in Sweden, but people rather frown at a non lethal substance more than alcohol and tobacco, because it's against the law. This is far from independent thinking."

Perhaps 90% of Swedes support their corporal punishment ban because it is effective? Are you implying that Swedes as a group never take issue with established policies? I would think that if a ban on corporeal punishment was causing pandemonium across their homes, it would not have such a high approval rating—it would probably have been repealed already.

"I never said the people generally believe that alcohol is better."

It sounded that way when you said: "Now alcohol's legal and people are fine with it more than they are about weed." But maybe I misunderstood you.

"When laws are passed, it will come into play, the public's scrutiny will eventually come, though traditionally it takes many decades of trail because a majority collectively side with laws they cannot defeat."

I see what you are saying here. The prohibition of alcohol in the United States is perfect example of how laws are overturned when they are causing major problems. It does sometimes take a while for a society to realize the folly of legislation it pushes forward, yes. In the case of prohibition in the US—13 years.

"I don't understand what you mean by that. Canada is the most diverse nation in the world. We have politicians wearing turbans working next to a variety of races. Some of my white people actually think it's awkward being white in Toronto. Canada plans on taking in 25,000 Syrian refugees, so we'll see how that pans out. But I'll tell you this. There will be no crying racist at job interviews and the government settling it with money like Sweden does."

Canada is culturally diverse. Sweden (to my knowledge) has long prided itself on cultural homogeneity. There would be the issue of culture shock, alongside all the problems that go along with taking in tons of migrants.

"Even as an adult I'd rather a long 10 seconds of a giant human being who I love kick my ass, then do the weeks or months or years of family therapy or anger management."

Getting your ass kicked would give you insight into your problems?

Posts: 1259
White Trash

"It's amazing how you would rather refrain from talking about Sweden's policy on refugees as your society pressures you not to."

Our refugee policy is the number one talked about issue in Sweden and has been for quite some time. The reason I'd rather skip it is because it has nothing to do with corporal punishment.

"When Sweden makes a turn for the better, it won't be without be a polemic orientated revolution."

That's your personal theory.

"From the time corporal punishment has been outlawed, the effects of it has arrived right on cue. Or are we to believe how this is just one gigantic coincidence ?"

The change in attitudes that brought on a ban on corporal punishment in 1979 was part of a larger egalitarian 'movement' (hippies, anti-Vietnam War sentiments, leftist ideologies etc.) and this has left a mark on Sweden. Corporal punishment is only a tiny part of this sweeping change, which is why it's strange that you single it out as the main reason for the so-called 'spoiled' generation(s) we see today.

"When someone is punished for the wrong reasons, it will always seem irrational from day one. Reasons that were beyond the child's control, or reasons that weren't their fault or doing. These will create resentment for the parent from the child. This is abuse and not disciplinary action."

There are studies that show that children don't always have the intellectual capacity to understand why something's wrong and why they shouldn't do it. I don't think beating them will help them understand better.

6 / 36 posts
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