You overlook things and tend to make wrong decisions or draw wrong conclusions because of it.
Does the lack of balance between the two genders' expectations not phase you? Men have a lot less that's expected of them.
A lot less that's expected of men? What the fuck, I really don't feel like this is the case. There are some aspects in life one gender has it easier, and aspects where they have it harder. Seems balanced enough for me, where I am.
Nurture, not nature. I can see how those two can be confused for the other, but this is a case where it's been a system upheld through society, not genetics.
You're just repeating what Crow said. Am I the only one who noticed both of you missed replying to that particular post of mine, then she decided to do it and you followed shortly just to reinforce what she said?
So instead of asking "Why?" and looking into it, you just sit back and assume that's "Just how they are"?
I need to ask myself why women want to look good, be competitive with each other in beauty and attract males? What? Maybe for the same reasons men do it?
Why are you making this just about men anyway? There are women too who appreciate the beauty of other women, the makeup, etc. Women can also be attracted by other women, based on similar traits as men.
So... it's only women that steer the beauty trends? The trends, especially decades ago, could only be steered by men since women couldn't hold those sorts of jobs.
...What sort of jobs? And yeah I still think it's mostly women who rule the beauty industry and heighten the beauty standards, coming up with all sorts of makeup stuff, beauty tricks, perfumes. For all we know, us men would very much just be content with a wet enough hole at night. :D We can never know, we might be the victims here, forced to want more than we need and buy women all sorts of beauty stuff just because the evil women love this game of turning physical beauty into a refined art.
We know, but the why is what's worth focusing on. We get that you're a victim of the media machine, and I'm sorry for that, I really am, but at the very least recognizing the source is a way to reach an understanding and grow.
I just...XD I appreciate the sympathy buddy. As this humble worm programmed by society to dig in the earth I'll just ask you, the open eyed creature...don't you think this whole mentality just suits you and speaks to your ego? Seeing yourself as aware/superior and others brainwashed? It's more often to find mistakes of judgement from your position.
On top of that, have you ever really spoken in depth with women who follow the beauty aesthetics they have hoisted upon them?
I don't know, they seemed happy when they did it. I can't think of women who take care of their image as tormented beings. I think you're being a victim of feminist activism yourself. And let's assume they feel anxious and compelled to do it...Why do YOU think this is? There are different things, the desire to be attractive, and the requirements for that. I think the first thing is very natural, and the latter just developed from the first.
"i'm not saying you did, it was hypothetical. i meant if you had said that she didn't understand your point of view because she was 'wired differently' it wouldn't mean you were saying her opinion was invalid or less credible."
But it would. Which is why I didn't say that. Her wording seems extremely straightforward to me. She made it clear, that because we're supposedly "wired differently" from the majority, that we are less qualified in forming an opinion on the matter. It was almost her exact wording. She even said "not qualified". I don't understand how it could be taken any other way. I'm not saying that makes it personal, merely that it's a false argument.
"scientifically, yes. it would be an entirely logical perspective. subjectively, no. the one experiencing the sexuality in question has a unique perspective as it is who they are, rather than what they study."
At least as far as your example goes, I don't agree. I can see that general idea working in another scenario, but I wouldn't say that a gay person has any more insight into the biological sources of their sexual orientation, than a straight person. Science and logic belong no more to one person, than anyone else. There's no reason why I couldn't have an opinion just as valid as anyone else's on this subject, simply because of my personal preferences. I'm examining history, psychology, and facts. What does it for me is irrelevant. Though I suppose I may as well just come out and say it. I prefer shaven women. So regardless of which one of us is interpreting her wording correctly, her argument is still a moot point. XD I probably could have said something earlier, but I do love a good argument. I can't help jumping on faulty logic like a starving dog on a bloody steak. >_<
"erm. who is 'you're all'? i have never once given my personal opinion of your personal opinion. i only stated that i thought you were taking freyja's comments personally where i don't think they were. if your aim is misdirection, you're either really bad at it or i'm really good at spotting it. ;)"
My mistake. I thought "why she might not understand being 'wired differently'", meant that you were agreeing about me being wired differently. Didn't realize that you were speaking hypothetically.
"You're just repeating what Crow said."
Aren't we allowed to agree? : P
"Am I the only one who noticed both of you missed replying to that particular post of mine, then she decided to do it and you followed shortly just to reinforce what she said?"
Oh shit, we were both lazy. It's a conspiracy! : D
"But it would. Which is why I didn't say that. Her wording seems extremely straightforward to me. She made it clear, that because we're supposedly "wired differently" from the majority, that we are less qualified in forming an opinion on the matter. It was almost her exact wording. She even said "not qualified". I don't understand how it could be taken any other way. I'm not saying that makes it personal, merely that it's a false argument."
it wouldn't. which is why i used it as a hypothetical argument in which it wouldn't have meant that. she was basically suggesting you not be so arrogant as to why others might not understand your perspective and vice versa.
"At least as far as your example goes, I don't agree. I can see that general idea working in another scenario, but I wouldn't say that a gay person has any more insight into the biological sources of their sexual orientation, than a straight person. Science and logic belong no more to one person, than anyone else."
it's ok that you don't agree. i'm still right ;) and why are you talking about biological sources when i specifically said 'subjective' as opposed to 'objective'. do you have trouble understanding what subjective means, being so logical? it's like the opposite.
"My mistake. I thought "why she might not understand being 'wired differently'", meant that you were agreeing about me being wired differently. Didn't realize that you were speaking hypothetically."
fuck you, bitch.
"it wouldn't. which is why i used it as a hypothetical argument in which it wouldn't have meant that."
So by taking her words and suggesting that I imagine myself saying them to her instead, I'm supposed to draw the conclusion that they don't mean what I think they mean? When I've even told you, that if I used that wording, that's exactly what I would mean? That sounds like something a therapist would say. XD
"she was basically suggesting you not be so arrogant as to why others might not understand your perspective and vice versa."
I doubt that very much.
"and why are you talking about biological sources when i specifically said 'subjective' as opposed to 'objective'."
I specifically added the word biological, for that reason. The part of the conversation to which all this is referring, is about biological sources. Hence, I'm saying I'm just as qualified as Frejya, to have an opinion on that subject.
"fuck you, bitch."
Fuck you too?
"but even if so, why would that be unnatural. Look at lion prides and monkey groups, no one tells the orangutan that he's a hypocrite for mating with the mates that encourage mating behavior the most."
And I'm not calling you a hypocrite for fucking shaven women.
"You think bees call their males unfair because the males just eat and fuck (if lucky) while the bees are working their asses off?"
You want me to be more like a bug? : P
"Or the peacock cries double standards because the peahens don't need to prune their feathers and dance to win over a mate?"
How are all these comparisons helpful? Are you saying that if a man "just eats and fucks", while a woman is "working her ass off", she's not supposed to have a problem with it because.... bees don't? XD To give you a frame of reference, of the absurdity:
"Women..... That sow right there gave birth to a litter of eight. Barely a grunt."
- Craster from Game of Thrones, while complaining about the screams of his daughter giving birth.
The GoT writers make everything that comes from Crasters mouth intentionally absurd and abrasive. Are you really gonna make me draw this comparison, Ed? Humans and animals are different. >_<
"...The fuck?"
Then what is the point of that rambling about belladonna? I mean, you're advocating the upholding of beauty standards, and you give an example that literally blinds people. What am I even supposed to make of that? XD Obviously you're not saying it's a good idea, but what are you saying?
"So you don't have a problem with what you feel are double standards? Or are you just backtracking like a minx now?"
Not at all. I've been entirely consistent throughout this debate. The inconsistencies you're seeing, are a product of your own assumptions. I do not have a problem with shaving. I do have a problem with double standards. This has been my position from the start.
"Yeah definitely no issue with it at all. Perfect unbiased logical statement here, with no traces of sarcastic accusations and moral righteousness whatsoever XD"
So because I haven't succumbed to your viewpoint, that means I have personal issues with the subject matter? No such luck. Regardless of what you care to believe in your overly defensive mindset, this is just good, healthy arguing to me. Though if you want me to not be sarcastic, that costs extra. : P
"Well that would be right. Normalcy is defined by what's most common."
Yes. And? I never said I was normal. I was just pointing out a blatant contradiction in what she was saying.
"Someone who likes scat can be called abnormal, although he'd make the same case as you, that " Everything and anything is attractive to the right person. Because something is only attractive to a few people, doesn't mean it's objectively unattractive.""
So you think only people with abnormal preferences would make that argument? It's a sad day for logic if that's true. Luckily we can safely say that's not the case. Because I prefer shaven women. Yes Ed. I know it boggles the imagination. But I actually do have the rational capacity to see the flaws in my own preferences. I can prefer shaven women, and at the same time, understand that shaving as a gender-specific obligation, is a double standard. Word of the day: Objectivity
"Alright, I was thinking of the general principle. You denied that proper standards need some work to achieve. Then you use a single example I gave (not wearing make up) to try to render false my whole point about men being held to standards that women are not."
I never denied any such thing. Quote me, if I did.
You drew a comparison. I denied your comparison. I didn't cherry-pick an example. I simply discussed the example you gave, as a relevant aspect of the debate. As well as discussing everything else you said. If you didn't want your claims examined, you shouldn't have made them. I'm not saying that this makes your entire argument wrong or mine right. But if you make a comparison that doesn't make sense, I'm going to correct it.
"like men being expected to carry the heaviest part of the luggage/shopped items"
Which is also unfair. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right"?
"The whole thing about women crying double standards in situations like this is that pretty much everything is a double standard in social interactions, and singling out specific things like shaving doesn't make much sense, unless personal reasons."
It was the discussion at hand. If it had been about a different double standard, we'd be arguing (or potentially agreeing) about that. Are you suggesting that it doesn't make sense to argue any point, unless you argue every point?
"Yeah, do you have any proof things worked this way?"
Dude.... history. There's books. Please read them.
"You sure "everything was decided by men"?"
Everything? I'm sorry, are we still talking about body hair? XD
"If you ask me, you're the one underestimating the women and being unfair to them at this point. You think women were these weaklings just doing what their men told them to. Women have always been cunning and knew how to stir a man into the direction they wanted, they have always had the shadow power. Yes, sexual attraction was a powerful tool for them in that, and still is, and it makes more sense to think they had more saying in deciding what men found attractive or not, since it was pretty much their best weapon in the game. Look into the history of the turkish harems for example, how women there often had the most power even over the sultan. Even the entire reign of Suleiman the Magnificent was dominated by the political games played by the women around him."
Now you're accusing me of sexism against women, because I think obligatory shaving is a double standard? Don't pull a muscle, Ed. You're reaching pretty hard. XD
"Small breasts aren't unnatural, and no, just as men with small balls and dicks shouldn't torture them with devices into being bigger. I just tried to explain WHY some traits are more attractive to men, since you said they were random. I'm confused why despite this Turncoat still got the impression that I don't wonder about the "why"s."
Random? Another thing I never said. Don't confuse "random" with "arbitrary". They are two different words with two different meanings, and I chose the latter for a reason.
"Thank the fucking god you don't expect anything, because that means you don't really expect me to buy this lmao! XD!"
You think I put these kinds of expectations on my lover? Well, you have a rare opportunity. Verification. Go ask TC yourself. Ask him about all the demands I place on him and the standards I hold him to.
"Not sure who you've been arguing against. Who said hair on women was unnatural in that way? Gee and I said body hair on women these days is unnatural in the sense that it goes against the even more natural desire of not being rejected by the mates/group."
I think you may be making a mistake in speaking for Angee. XD
"Society is full of obligations."
That doesn't mean they should all be accepted.
"Why you got so fixated on this in the multitude of different obligations for different genders, social classes, intellectual classes, etc, is what doesn't make sense to me. If we're asking about WHYS, I think you should think about why this issue is so important to you compared to others on which you've stayed silent so far."
Am I fixated? Because we're having a conversation about it? The first, and likely last conversation we will ever have about this subject, might I add. Damn... I must be fixated on a lot of things, because I have soooo many conversations. Does this mean you're fixated too? After all, you're still responding, same as me. What's up with your obsession with female body hair? That's weird, Ed. ; P
"You kinda are, when 2 groups are making the same mistake but you're only picking on one. It's like when you and the boy next door get into a fight but only you get called out for it. I always hated that, it seemed unfair."
Just because I'm discussing a flaw in a particular demographic? We could talk about things I dislike about women for a while, if that would make you feel better. : P
"Not if there are different consequences for that. I also don't think equality works that simple (if I am to do this then you are to do the same)."
You're translating what I'm saying into simplistic terms. Obviously equality isn't that simple. But you implied that if a man demands that his woman shave her legs, and she asks him to shave his beard, it's equal. I'm saying that if it's either a demand or a request in either direction, it's equal. But if one demands and one requests, that's still unequal. Women who ask their boyfriends/husbands to shave their face, don't undermine the entire double standard of a society that demands that women shave, but makes it optional for men. And even the women who demand that their partner shave, are only leveling the playing field, not creating a double standard themselves. It would only be a double standard on the womans part, if she demanded that her partner shave, but her partner didn't demand it in return. Which I'm sure has happened. But I'm also sure it's extremely rare. And the reverse is extremely common. I'm talking about a societal impression, not the misguided whims of a few exceptions.
"Keep up Crow on Defence, just a few paragraphs earlier you said men have always imposed beauty standards on women."
They have. Not all men, of course. But it's always been a significant presence in society. I can see why you would choose this word, but I wouldn't define this as "blame". Blame implies spite over a grievance. I'm examining a societal flaw. I see cause more than fault. If I hold anyone to fault for it, it's humans as a collective. It's just another human problem.
"I have doubts there was a gene selection of women who like to make themselves attractive, lmao,"
Then take a biology class. It's called darwinism.
"That sounds like something a therapist would say. XD"
lol, i was just mirroring your argument. does that comment mean you think i'm a therapist, or that i sound like one? also, are you implying that therapists have their own agenda to push regardless of what you tell them?
"I specifically added the word biological, for that reason. The part of the conversation to which all this is referring, is about biological sources. Hence, I'm saying I'm just as qualified as Frejya, to have an opinion on that subject."
but my example was purely subjective, not to mention, neither you or freyja appear to be scientists doing any sort of formal research, so both of your perspectives as well as mine would be subjective only.
"Fuck you too?"
you seem unsure, i'll give you some time to make up your mind
