It's placebo from them believing forgiveness has power, not placebo as in faking forgiveness. It doesn't go as far as full blown shapeshifting, but it has accounted for some strange phenomenon.
Did you watch the youtube link I posted on it?
you kinda use your smarts to be a fat vagina; but you are very smart reiterated
Thanks for the compliment. I think. This forum is full of people smarter than I am, and smarter than they let on.
Sharing back and forth pushes me to think and speak smarter to keep up! So thank you. So it's good practice for all of us. To become even bigger better smart asses, I guess! Just what the world needs more of....
by TurncoatIt's placebo from them believing forgiveness has power, not placebo as in faking forgiveness. It doesn't go as far as full blown shapeshifting, but it has accounted for some strange phenomenon.
Did you watch the youtube link I posted on it?
Hi Turncoat, this computer has issues with some youtube. And I have to be careful at work.
I'll try to find that link and see how to view it.
I still think we are talking of different contexts.
Even with prayers, there are some types that DON'T work for exorcism/deliverance.
So those prayers and their placebo substitutes might work for "other applications." I would not doubt you are right that any number of applications could be done by placebo. [p.s. would you like to put together a healing study?
that would be interesting to see if exorcism/deliverance can really only be done in the prayers through Christ Jesus or if other natural healing methods or "placebo" effects could free people of schizophrenic voices, etc.]
But I have never ever heard of the DEEP process of spiritual healing working by a "placebo effect." (maybe lighter cases could work, but I seriously doubt the hardcore cases could be done.)
That process is so painful and involved, it's not like something that can be done by just placebo/"believing" in it.
It takes DOING deep steps. Even if you SKIP ONE STEP it can fail 'even if you BELIEVE the process works.'
What could I compare it to? Like how to clean off deep oil spill grease off a goose. You can't just WISH or BELIEVE the process will work. It takes DAWN or specially strong soap that can dissolve the grease to save those poor birds.
So the deep deep spiritual cleansing requires an intensive process that isn't just the capacity of the mind to "believe" or "wish" it
Another curious fact, Turncoat, this spiritual healing process worked for a friend of mine who DOESN'T believe in it.
So that's is like taking the DAWN and degreasing the birds to save them. And the person who doesn't believe it will work can still sit there "not believing" and it still worked. That soap was strong enough to clean off the oil spill.
The person did NOT need to "believe it" for the process to work.
In my friend's case, he just needed to accept the help. Just did the steps regardless if he felt it would do jack squat. And it still worked, and he still doesn't care to acknowledge it OPENLY because he hates anything to do with Christianity. The prayer process broke through the demonic rage oppressing him with fear. He did admit the prayer helped him get to that point, but doesn't like to talk about it, he doesn't want to make a big deal. These demonic type addictions are so strong, people cannot just get over them by "believing". my friend had to agree to accept forgiveness for past abuses, that was a mental commitment a big step. that was the key, not believing the process
I'll try to find a way to view that video, thanks
in the meantime you gave me an idea that maybe this should be the focus of repeat studies on spiritual healing.
Some things so you get where my perspective is coming from.
My bits:
o I don't believe in exorcism/deliverance.
o Prayers to me constitute wishful thinking and self-comfort instead of meaningful action.
o Spiritual healing is what we're saying is the placebo effect. It's the same sort of criteria as that of snake oil salesmen and other con-artists, except using a means that's easier for some people to swallow.
o Acceptance can be done without faith and forgiveness. My own rebuilding experiences for example were done on my own, not through some sort of medium, and what assistance I've done to help others rebuild has had nothing to do with faith.
o Churches make me super uncomfortable, so I'm bound to be biased.
o You really ought to check that youtube link if you get the chance. It explains what placebo is so much better than I can.
"this spiritual healing process worked for a friend of mine who DOESN'T believe in it."
Can you prove he didn't believe in it? This person might claim it wasn't believed, but all the theatrics might have caused a change of heart, which was then reinforced when he believed he saw results. He doesn't have to believe in your faith, he simply has to be fooled into thinking the process made a difference.
What are your thoughts on hypnosis, and what's your explanation for healing that was done through con artistry and other means? What of times where Sugar Pills fixed the problem by duping someone to believe it was something better?
by emilynghiemSorry, I think we are miscommunicating and crossing wires/messages.
1. You thought I was saying "I had autism," but I thought someone said "you had Asberger's"
2. fear is a separate issue from that.
I thought you were "scared" this was some kind of game. So you were "scared to play."
So I said don't play games and there's nothing to be scared of. Then later you said you "didn't want to know"
so it sounded like you were "scared" again to think this was something negative or better off ignoring.
Is this more clear what I mean by being scared?
SS the basic types of fear are:
(a) fear of the unknown
(b) fear of change or control by external influence/authority
(c) fear of conflict or confrontation
So as long as you are okay addressing your fears, resolving them with knowledge and understanding,then there is nothing to fear that you can't get over.
One thing some other people are usually "afraid" to know about. When I bring up spiritual healing and how it works, many people freak out because it would change their perception and they are afraid of those changes.
Are you afraid of looking into this area and understanding why it has such an impact on society?
If you are not ready, that's fine, we can start with something else. But this concept usually scares people on multiple levels: their personal perception changing, their relationships changing and how they look at the world.
Can you handle that or do you want to talk about something else?
Thanks Sensitive. I think it's good to overcome fear. We all have a lot to learn here because we're all so different.
Appreciate you sticking around to discuss more things in depth.
Yours truly, Emily
We shouldn't fear each other; I would love to hear your thoughts on spiritual healing
by emilynghiem
you kinda use your smarts to be a fat vagina; but you are very smart reiterated
Thanks for the compliment. I think. This forum is full of people smarter than I am, and smarter than they let on.
Sharing back and forth pushes me to think and speak smarter to keep up! So thank you. So it's good practice for all of us. To become even bigger better smart asses, I guess! Just what the world needs more of....
at first, I didn't understand my revision was calling turncoat a fat vagina, but now I do because. I am reading this now
Ok i get it now. You were translating for me waffling between calling Turncoat a dumb twat or a smart ass.
Thanks you are a better teacher than Slimey and Kanye who gave up trying to teach me to talk gangsta rap. Nigga Pleeez! Fail...
Can i move up the scale now and be a 4. Or stay stuck as a 3.5 until I learn to master the puppet game.
Who says hell doesnt exist? This is living proof!
OK but I still say there are two - four different levels of spiritual healing and change.
So the placebo can still work on some but not on the others.
If you are saying even the exorcism/deliverance process is a placebo in itself "EVEN WHEN THE PROCESS IS DONE IF FULL", then yes, that could be argued to be just the person doing it by believing in it AS LONG AS NO STEPS ARE SKIPPED. All those steps would have to be included in the belief in order to call the whole thing a placebo if you want.
There are forgiveness studies that show the difference between forgiveness and unforgiveness on people's health and recovery, so this is the factor that I believe can be isolated as the key.
If you want to call forgiving things a "placebo" then fine but please make a distinction between
placebos that fail because people didn't forgive and placebos that work because people truly forgave.
Otherwise, there is not a clear distinction between these different levels of placebo effects!
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RE: my friend not believing
I love you Turncoat. I think you will make my friend LAUGH as I am laughing now.
I will let you contact him and you can hear from him how this is NOT his thing.
He will just say it didn't work. He got rid of those demons himself by coming to terms they weren't on the same level of reality. But he knows and I know he couldn't get rid of those demon rages until AFTER Olivia prayed to forgive the intense abuse between his father and grandmother who was possessed from hell, a totally sick person.
Turncoat you are perfectly scientific and would not have any reason to change your mind without proof.
You are a bit stubborn into being openminded there could be proof to change your mind.
But so was Scott Peck before he studied exorcism/deliverance through two real life patients
who changed his mind instantly. Though it took him 10 years to write it down, his thinking changed so much.
So my friend may need 10 years before he can talk about what he went through, it was so painful he compared it to rape.
Not to worry. My other gay atheist friend who believes in forgiveness healing doesn't believe in God/Jesus either.
But practicing forgiveness and compassion and sharing grace works, so that is good enough for him.
TC if you want to call this the placebo effect, that's fine.
It doesn't, however, make a distinction between people who try to change things "without changing thelmselves"
so it doesn't work; and people who truly change themselves and become like new people.
There are "higher deeper" levels of transformation that can't be done by believing alone.
But that's okay.
You would have to see scientific proof of the different stages or levels, and we can't do that online.
I will answer your other parts later, but the one about my friend doing this by placebo effect was funny.
Only AFTER the exorcism/deliverance could he freely choose to fix his problems. He was stuck as a victim and helpless to the rage that he could not control but took over and dominated his will where he could not function.
After that, yes I agree with you, he can do the rest by free will and focusing to direct his mind and energy.
He didn't have that before. Same as the patients in Scott Peck's books who couldn't act think reason or choose normally until AFTER They went through exorcism to remove the demonic obsessions dominating their minds/wills.
We really should see more repeat studies and further research on this as Dr. Peck urged the medical profession.
Like you say, it can't be proven to be more than a placebo or mental effect from the person's mind just by saying it.
It would take scientific measure to show that the energy changes after the process is applied.
The rest is faith based, but at least it can be shown that the process works to change the patient from before to after. And you can study these patients in confinement for years after, if you want to study if they relapse or not! That can be part of the study also. And use brain scans or other technology to measure changes in the brains.
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RE: hypnosis
1. there is a difference between someone quitting smoking because they forgave their rebellious teenage conflict with their dad which started the habit and quit as a result
vs. someone who quit because they went through hypnotherapy or acutherapy
You can still get rid of the symptoms, but addressing the root conflict gets rid of the cause of what started it
Each case is different. Some people do not respond to one way, and require the other.
So not all these can be compared. The point is to root out anything conflicting that blocks natural healing processes.
So whatever it takes to remove those blockages, people will try and use different ways to get different effects.
RE: con artists and fake faith healing
2. this should be part of the experiment to show "when the placebo effect works or fails"
In the book Healing by Dr. MacNutt he lists 12 reasons when healing prayer fails.
So just believing and wishing may still not make it work, and causes problems with the false faith healing.
If studies show that FORGIVENESS is the factor, letting go or resolving conflicts is "correlated" with the healing,
that can demonstrate why false faith healing doesn't work and why the true methods of spiritual healing do.
You could isolate this factor and show by correlation the patients who report forgiveness/healing vs. unforgiveness/lack of healing.
Each person's process is different. I met some who used karmic regression therapy plus Christian prayer to get rid of phobias. And open friend used AA mixed with Buddhist meditation.
the common factor they report is being able to forgive and let go so they could free their minds and circulate more positive thoughts and energy. they no longer had that negative fear or guilt or whatever from the past.
So whatever you call that step, that seems to be the point of the process.
and if you don't fully let go, the healing only goes to a certain point and then you have something else to let go.
Even Scientologists developed a whole model around this and sell it for 1000's of dollars.
So sad when the process is free, anyone can take the knowledge in Buddhist Christian and other recovery books
and figure it out it is the same process. Instead of selling it to people like snake charmers when it's natural and free.