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0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?
Jada said: 

What you're referring to is the WYSIATI principle. There's a tendency for us to hyper focus on a few select areas without being able to process or recognize the existence of a broader sets of information that is beyond the immediate horizon. I appreciate the sentiment and the recommendation to relax, but I'm well aware of the cognitive bias and I've spent the last 7 years cultivating habits to minimize it.

So in other words you have no inclination to try to relax, and feel as if you know best in how to handle the situation you've found yourself trapped in? 

If that's true, why are you asking questions like this? Are you just looking for yes-men or are you looking for a contrast from others that'd stand to work as a prompt or talking point? 

If you already feel like you know enough, why are you asking people who you'd find to be beneath you, as confirmation that your answer must be superior? 

Beyond relaxing, taking a step back and looking into tbe broader subject theme helps you make headway. Like, for example, instead of hyper focusing on mirror neurons as an explanation for empathy or on empathy being a sliding scale, stepping back and looking into qualia, philosophy, religion, neuroscience as a whole, the origin of consciousness, linguistics, other people's thoughts, yourself, for answers, would probably let you think outside the box. 

As I responded with towards BT, even if it's not Mirror Neurons specifically it still serves as a shorthand reference towards such automatic mimicry. 

Surely you've seen emotional contagion happen right, regardless of which path you've seen it from or what filter you process it through? I ask because there are people on this forum who've either said it's not real or that it's like watching aliens communicate. 

Same applies to this discussion, to some extent. Instead of hyperfocusing on the word smart, or how I've expressed myself, how what I said made you feel, or how I must be saying what I'm saying because of some deeprooted issues, you could make more headway by seriously considering that I am right, entertaining that thought, and placing it in the context of everything you know.

All I'm doing here is throwing my two cents at you to give you the opportunity to carry what was said, and what would saying you're right in this case do other than further the path you've already found yourself on that you find frustrating? When someone corners themselves the only way out is seeking newer answers, even if those answers at first glance might look worse. 

It's kind of like feeling too hyper to watch a really good movie, only to find yourself able to watch and enjoy it after five or ten minutes of it have passed, or like dipping a toe into the hot tub and resisting the urge to see the heat as threatening. 

If there's other paths you could take, and potential root causes for what has you act that way, what good does telling you to keep up something that frustrates you if it doesn't promise to go anywhere new?  Which one of us is the one with the problem in this specific scenario, and if it's you, why should it be me doing all your research for you rather than throwing forward the appearances as I see them as a comparison? I'm not being paid to help you or anything, I'm just talking how I see it. 

I likely won't have the answers, and even if I did people tend to resent that it did not come from themselves. All I have the ability to really do here is engage in conversation and, potentially, be a reference that comes up later in life. Even simply seeing where another is coming from can combine with their perspective into an answer they didn't intend to give that otherwise ends up working for that person.

It's like meeting a drug dealer who, after enough talking to him or her, ends up semi-inspirational about the idea of being "Self-Made". You don't then have to start dealing drugs to be self-made, but coming from them it had the room to translate into other areas more generally, maybe in combination with something the listener already knew but didn't have all the puzzle pieces for. 

Taking the journey with an open mind is the only real advice I have, as what works for me is liable to not be your answer just like the hypothetical drug dealer, or from talking to other religious people outside of your own path still otherwise having sound advice. 

You're unable to, because it conflicts with what you see in your immediate horizon, so as a proponent of Occam's razor, you reject it. But Occam's razor only tells us what to expect, and you expect to see what you have already seen. Only a fool follows that monk when it comes to exploring new frontiers, because then there's nothing to explore.

Next to nothing is new, simply new for the individual. As such a monk could help expand someone's horizons if they were not already a monk to begin with. 

Even just sitting in a temple in silence can be a new experience if you've never been and done it before, just as much as one's first few times at a spa or taking a cooking class or something. 

The aspiration of peace must be pursued and then cultivated, and plenty of people have different brands of shorthand towards otherwise similar answers. What one calls "A Retreat" or "A Spirit Journey" I might call a vacation, but that doesn't stop the underlying things going on in spite of calling it different things and seeing it in different ways (beyond our perceptions of it at least). 

That's a part of what I mean by nonlinear thinking. It takes energy, except when you're in the "zone".

What are you getting out of spending that additional energy though, other than frustration that the answers continue to elude you? 

What steps have you taken to try to calm down the fixations when they occur? From what I've seen from your behaviors they tend to build up until you claim you are acting unlike yourself and retreat from the scenario entirely. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 10/9/2023 4:13:01 PM
Posts: 33542
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?

I've found videos like this comforting, as it shows a sense of peace through cultivation within a small world. 



Jun's never going to discover a new isotope or be the first man on Mars, but does that matter? 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 434
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?

I guess I should say that I don't in the least feel ungrateful here. The fact that there's someone to spitball thoughts with is something I cherish.

What steps have I taken to try to calm down the fixations when they occur, or relax? I travel, I have sex, I take vacations, I go to a massage bi-weekly, I host events, I eat and drink, I go to the beach, I book a hotel, watch a movie, read a book, take a bath, etc.

It's not really fixation in the OCD sense. I'm "fixated" on intellectual pursuits in that I genuinely enjoy learning new information.I'm not trying to "stop" myself from learning new information, nor is that a problem. I love learning.

It's more the sense of apathy brought about by a sense of pointlessness of it all that prompted this thread. I guess I'm convolving two problems, one is my sense of loneliness in intellectual pursuits, the other a sense of purposelessness.

I feel very alone in my intellectual pursuits. That's the problem. The issue is that I feel people aren't really capable of holding a discussion at the right level with me nor are their suggestions novel in that they're not, in my opinion, thought out to the standard that I myself adhere to. I'm not feeling entitled, but I'm too much ahead in most discussions, to the point that I start to feel lonely. It's even with new topics I find interesting, I feel entertained by the discussion for a moment, and then the next thing I know, I'm already ahead, and I'm back to not being able to exchange information with anyone.

Most of my scientific ideas and discoveries are new. Most of everything we know is built on old ideas, but there's a lot of novelty out there. My philosophy, for example, is entirely novel, even if it is built on old ideas and guideposts.

last edit on 10/10/2023 4:13:01 PM
Posts: 2479
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?

Sogee?

Posts: 434
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?

I've found videos like this comforting, as it shows a sense of peace through cultivation within a small world. 



Jun's never going to discover a new isotope or be the first man on Mars, but does that matter? 

That's a nice, calming thought. I guess it doesn't matter. At the same time, it also makes it harder to push forward though. That is, if none of it matters. That's the qualm I have with the atheistic way to answer to existential crises, and the philosophy sold by Kurzgesagt. It's both soothing and "dooming" that nothing matters to someone driven by purpose.

I'm not looking for a yes-man. The reason I made the comment that it would be more conducive to entertain the thought that I am right is to bring the discussion to a realm where we both share common ground. Right now, if this conversation was represented as two bubbles, then there would be only small overlap, because I feel like I'm smarter than others because I am, whereas you suppose that I feel like I'm smarter than others because I am insecure.

However, the reason it slows the conversation is because I don't identify at all with the feeling of being defensive about my intellect as you suggest, nor am I fixated on the things you're suggesting I'm fixated on, and furthermore I've explored most of such suggestions in the past. So your conversational "bubble" if you can call it that is miles away from what I identify with. What you've done is placed yourself in my shoes, and then you've given me advice based on what you yourself would do if you were insecure about being smart, or if you were hyper, because those are things that you can easily identify with. I appreciate the sentiment, but if those presumptions are wrong, then we're talking at cross purposes.

What I think would be more conducive is placing yourself in my shoes under the presumption that I'm right, taking that I've said at face value. It's not just about agreeing.,because I don't have your lived experience, and you know a great many things that I don't know. I think I could offer a very scientific take on Aubrieta's lived experience, for example, simply by placing myself in her shoes, really living it and throwing away all of my first guesses and presumptions, no matter how much I don't believe her. While I can place myself in her shoes, we're two different people, and I have knowledge of a great many things she has no idea about.

In the end, you can do what you want; it's more a suggestion that I think could better the conversation rather than an entitled demand. I'm happy to work at whatever pace you like.

last edit on 10/10/2023 4:40:59 PM
Posts: 33542
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?
Jada said: 

What steps have I taken to try to calm down the fixations when they occur, or relax? I travel, I have sex, I take vacations, I go to a massage bi-weekly, I host events, I eat and drink, I go to the beach, I book a hotel, watch a movie, read a book, take a bath, etc.

Does this not help? 

It's more the sense of apathy brought about by a sense of pointlessness of it all that prompted this thread. I guess I'm convolving two problems, one is my sense of loneliness in intellectual pursuits, the other a sense of purposelessness.

Have you ever let yourself undergo the challenge of allowing yourself to be dumb? 

It can prove difficult. 

The issue is that I feel people aren't really capable of holding a discussion at the right level with me nor are their suggestions novel in that they're not, in my opinion, thought out to the standard that I myself adhere to. 

Have you challenged yourself into adhering to their standards instead, rather than expecting everyone to conform to your own? 

I tend to get more out of figuring where their suggestions are coming from, rather than just looking at the suggestion by itself. People can say a lot and mean very little, and others can say little with it meaning a lot. 

I'm not feeling entitled, but I'm too much ahead in most discussions, to the point that I start to feel lonely. It's even with new topics I find interesting, I feel entertained by the discussion for a moment, and then the next thing I know, I'm already ahead, and I'm back to not being able to exchange information with anyone.

Has no one within your own field of study been able to keep up? There must be peers you're otherwise having to interact with occupationally right? 

Jada said:
Right now, if this conversation was represented as two bubbles, then there would be only small overlap, because I feel like I'm smarter than others because I am, whereas you suppose that I feel like I'm smarter than others because I am insecure.

Moreso I am questioning why your being smarter than people actually matters, what about it that has you feel alone. Lots of people are smarter than other people without it lending to the same kind of suffering, so I'd argue that the intelligence is an independent variable from the alienation. 

From my POV, you sound like you'd benefit from developing patience for other people's communication styles. Loneliness of this sort tends to be self-inflicted as a matter of keeping their interests too narrow, expecting their peers to be like themselves. People all have something to talk about, something that interests them enough to understand something to such a degree as to reflect the time they've invested into it. 

Even if they don't prove to be smarter than you, they can prove to be more experienced in areas you haven't touched with a talent that reflects it. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 10/10/2023 7:32:39 PM
Posts: 81
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?

It’s never a good thing to be the smartest person in the room. There are some who say it’s a good thing to be the dumbest and poorest person in your group so you have people to be inspired by, who’ll challenge you and help you grow. 

I find it hard to see how you can be alone in your intellectual pursuits if you work at a university and are surrounded by academics, why not connect with them? And is your wife not on your intellectual level? 

Posts: 434
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?

Does relaxing not help? It doesn't help with the objective problem, but I do feel less existential angst when I relax rather than when I am stressed. I think that goes for everything. I think the point is that I'm already relaxing taking steps to relax, but it's not solving the underlying issue.

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean when you ask me if I've tried to allow myself to be dumb. I occasionally dumb myself down to fit in or pretend to be dumber than I am to see how people react. For example, I was curious about how Inquirer would react when he's in a position where he can lord over someone he thinks is dumber than him, which I guess is a fun past time hobby for me. It makes me appreciate the viewpoints of people dumber than I am. Genuinely being dumb? I don't think I can actually dumb myself down in the sense of forgetting how to do multiplication or something, but I can distract myself or turn my brain "off" consciously to zone off. If you give me enough to drink, then maybe. But why?

Have I conformed to others' standards? All the time. Even now I'm exerting significant effort to accommodate to your standards negotiate according to them, in my communication style, in my responses to your critique, and also in my previous elaboration. It's the social contract we have and I'm expecting some things in return. I'm sure you noticed I did that in the debate with Inquirer, where I let go of my own standard and did an internal critique of his. It's not that I expect to be entitled to something I myself am unable to do.

What I think you're referring to is my insistence occasionally in debates to adhere to the generally accepted standard for the reason that it was tailor-made to make the rules fair. It's not necessary to adhere to them, but the problem is that then it's not really a debate anymore. In a regular conversation, I have no issues accommodating to people, but I feel like these questions are more related to the past squabbles I've had more than this particular problem? What I think is happening is that you're focusing on some of my past strange behaviors and you're guessing that it must be related because both my problem and those strange behaviors are indicative of some sort of personal shortcoming or deficiency, but the point is that it's more likely than not that they're unrelated.

last edit on 10/11/2023 6:13:36 PM
Posts: 434
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?

I'm onboard with Gypsy about it not being a good thing to be the smartest person in the room. It's horrible.

Regarding academics. That's a good question. I've sort of forgotten what I had in mind when I wrote that, to be very honest. Most of the time when I discuss with academics, they can't hold a decent conversation at all, but it depends on their age and career stage, with some of the well-established professors being more capable. There are some people who are hyper specialized in a topic and I really enjoy the conversation because it can go to much more depth, albeit only on a few select topics. There are maybe a dozen people like that I've met. Once I get the gist of things, though, it becomes pretty much the same, with the conversation becoming very unsatisfactory.

There are a one or two professors that I've met who have a similar mentality as I do, and I could imagine I could have daily conversations with them about some of the topics I'm less familiar with. However, they're mostly busy, since they're much better established than I am. If I talk about the specific areas I'm an expert in, there's nobody in the world who can teach me.

However, I guess a subset of the questions I have are more triggered by existential angst, rather than the lack of help in any specific research area, and for those questions, most scientists don't care about them, and most philosophers are idiots and I look down on them. The other types of questions I have are related to very broad scientific questions, which can't be answered by being hyper-specialized, and the unfortunate truth is that there are very few scientists out there who go both wide and deep in their research interests. It's the funding agencies that make sure of that, except when it comes to people like me, who specialize in multiple areas. There are people like that, but they're very rare to come by. Consequently, discussing about what matters (the actual interesting science questions) becomes difficult. Most scientists are not brave enough to try to truly tackle big questions, or otherwise don't have enough faith they can do it, so they lose sight of what the hell they were trying to do in the first place, and instead will focus on what brings them bread and butter. For me it's always been all or nothing. I'm happy being fired from academia pursuing my dreams rather than subject myself to intellectual slavery. But it's very rare to see that happen in academia.

 

Ps. I don't really like the way your more personal question is posed. My wife is much smarter than I am. The only reason I'm not intellectually leeching off of my wife is to not dumb down her brilliance.

last edit on 10/11/2023 6:46:27 PM
Posts: 126
0 votes RE: What's the point of it all?
Jada said: 

Sigh.

I want there to be someone smarter than me who has all the answers. But alas, everyone is an idiot.

I bet I could even prove that, mathematically, that nobody knows nothing. How utterly frustrating.

So where's God in all of this? Playing hide and seek, I bet.

 lol. Oh noooo. God put you here as a great experiment just to see what you would do. Tempt you with worldly pleasures just to test your character. And this is what you choose to do? Yammer on about yourself.

last edit on 10/12/2023 2:44:16 AM
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