Message Turncoat in a DM to get moderator attention

Users Online(? lurkers):
10 / 32 posts
0 votes

Free Will, Predestination, and God


Posts: 4519

This is probably going to turn into a mess of a thread...or not. Is it predetermined to be so? Is it that the future is written out, encoded into reality, and we have but yet to live it, experience it? Or is it that there is a tapestry of intents, interwoven with threads of determinism and indeterminacy? To what extent is God culpable, supposing he exists?

Many of faith, specifically of the familiar monotheistic God of Judaism and Christianity and Islam (and their various sects), tout God's "Plan". This "Plan" is on the scale of "immaculate order" -- perfect, complete, and unchanging. It accounts for all possibilities, making no mistakes and allowing for no error, having been put in place upon the onset of Creation. All perception for uncertainties, unfairness, etc., is merely a disfunction brought upon by the finite nature of the one holding that perspective. It is also part of the Plan.

This view would have to deal with the paradox of the espousal that humanity possesses free will and that these choices and actions matter, while essentially being "preprogrammed" into future history. An individual's impact and efficacy is washed out by ultimately not having any responsibility for the consequences. Any weight of punitive action, divine or otherwise, seems but a pantomime, like some child getting angry at toys they made and direct, just errant meat robots. Such a thing would be merely sad, if it weren't that the toys were us and it also seems we have our own feelings and experience of this, so, for some reason, it matters to us.

But why bother? Is it for the entertainment of some cosmic being? Is this the divine equivalent to reality television?

Possibly, and this may not be far off from the Hindu's "atman", God, as the source and perspective of all consciousness, "lives" our lives. Or, more accurately, "rides" or "experiences" lives. The illusion of free will is accompanied with a "forgetting" of self, so that the programmed experience feels authentic and engaging. All the while, though, it's a series of performances, merely to appease a bored deity that just wants to "feel something". (Even Alan Watts proposed something of a similar nature with the "push button place" and the button labeled "surprise".)

Can there be free will with the "Plan", like this? Probably not without the provisions considered above: selective amnesia and compartmentalization. Effectively, God-With-Dissociative-Identity-Disorder, or something.

And, one has to wonder, if anyone figuring this out, or similar things like "enlightenment" where people wake up to this illusion, are part of this planned experience...what does that mean? If enough consciousness does this, does it reset? Is the game or experience over? Perhaps if the opposite occurs -- consciousness never wakes up, gets darker and ends up trying to extinguish itself on a cosmic scale -- that is also another reset situation. (One supposes that the source of reality itself has no choice but to remain real, thus indestructible even to its own devices of self-destruction. But that's probably a whole other discussion.)

It's probably unnecessary to point out how such things as love, honor, or worship would be in a system of predestination. Hollow and pointless. Would God really find pleasure in this?

Let's set aside predestination. Like many philosophers and others suggest, let there really only be The Now. There is potential, there is possibility, but all that is actual is only Now. The past is done, the future is not "here" yet. All that Is can be wrapped up in the given state of reality as it is on the only experiencable moment that has efficacy to reality: Now. Every moment, reality is making itself. Creation is a current (and ongoing) event.

How do we consider God's omniscience here? God would have a continuously updating awareness of Now, across all Creation. The "past" would be embedded in the "present" by a sort of historical log of "state regression". One could map causitive events which lead to the present. Knowledge of the future could be computed from the extrapolation of history and the acute, perfect awareness of each and every state transition at the very moment it would happen.

Another mitigating factor is that God, as the source and movement of all Being, also is time. God, being atemporal by nature, has "all the time in the world" between state transitions to account for the consequences. In a material sense, this is God-As-Physics, providing the most mechanistic-yet-fair system of consequence (among many other things). An illustrative limit is met here, since it isn't a proper analogy to use the imagery where God is sitting back thoughtfully between every moment. Since this is literally "outside of time", it is "metatemporal"; it doesn't "take any time" and would seem instantaneous to any perspective limited to a temporal frame.

The key factor here is that this leaves room for free will and a God able to meet the needs for consistency in an ongoing experience. Choices and actions matter, there is room for consequential and appropriate moral decision-making, and real responsibility can be laid upon the individual. The absence of predestination is the only sane view to have, if one is to consider our lives to have meaning and for God's remonstrations or Will to be important in them.


TL;DR -- Predestination doesn't make sense and is pointless, unless you consider God lobotomized himself and it's all just a masturbatory illusion.  The alternative, the Eternal Now, offers more room for free will and meaning, without excluding anything that really makes God himself.  It's stupid and unevolved to think otherwise.

Thrall to the Wire of Self-Excited Circuit.
Posts: 5714
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

^  this thread is pretty stupid and you should have probably not shared,  seek Jesus

 

 

 

last edit on 8/13/2022 1:13:26 PM
Posts: 5714
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

believing in Jesus and the Word of God  (the Old Testament and New Testament of the bible)  explains everything in life,  and If you saw things from his eternal perspective then you would see how we could all have freewill and yet still be predestined to either condemnation or being in paradise eternal life with him,  because he sees all of the past, present and future outside of time,  whereas we are actively inside of time and are having a different experience

 

 

last edit on 8/13/2022 1:25:28 PM
Posts: 33413
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

^  this thread is pretty stupid and you should have probably not shared,  seek Jesus

 

Did you even read the OP?

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 33413
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

This is probably going to turn into a mess of a thread...or not. Is it predetermined to be so? Is it that the future is written out, encoded into reality, and we have but yet to live it, experience it? Or is it that there is a tapestry of intents, interwoven with threads of determinism and indeterminacy? 

I suspect the majority don't think about these kinds of things over how it depresses them. People don't tend to enjoy Existentialism over how it challenges them, they'd rather think something is handling it all for them as long as they follow a simple set of guidelines. 

To what extent is God culpable, supposing he exists?

Entirely. 

Posted Image

Many of faith, specifically of the familiar monotheistic God of Judaism and Christianity and Islam (and their various sects), tout God's "Plan". This "Plan" is on the scale of "immaculate order" -- perfect, complete, and unchanging. It accounts for all possibilities, making no mistakes and allowing for no error, having been put in place upon the onset of Creation. All perception for uncertainties, unfairness, etc., is merely a disfunction brought upon by the finite nature of the one holding that perspective. It is also part of the Plan.

This view would have to deal with the paradox of the espousal that humanity possesses free will and that these choices and actions matter, while essentially being "preprogrammed" into future history. An individual's impact and efficacy is washed out by ultimately not having any responsibility for the consequences. Any weight of punitive action, divine or otherwise, seems but a pantomime, like some child getting angry at toys they made and direct, just errant meat robots. Such a thing would be merely sad, if it weren't that the toys were us and it also seems we have our own feelings and experience of this, so, for some reason, it matters to us.

But why bother? Is it for the entertainment of some cosmic being? Is this the divine equivalent to reality television?

Free will is our ignorance of events, similar to how animals don't get everything we're doing. We're basically being told by the one who can see and know everything that our ignorance is some sort of an advantage, sort of like how we sometimes might envy an animal over how their constraints can be considered a freedom in their own right. 

Posted Image

Possibly, and this may not be far off from the Hindu's "atman", God, as the source and perspective of all consciousness, "lives" our lives. Or, more accurately, "rides" or "experiences" lives. The illusion of free will is accompanied with a "forgetting" of self, so that the programmed experience feels authentic and engaging. All the while, though, it's a series of performances, merely to appease a bored deity that just wants to "feel something". (Even Alan Watts proposed something of a similar nature with the "push button place" and the button labeled "surprise".)

Can there be free will with the "Plan", like this? Probably not without the provisions considered above: selective amnesia and compartmentalization. Effectively, God-With-Dissociative-Identity-Disorder, or something.

Or maybe to such a creature Life is but a Dream? Or perhaps he is enjoying people's lives vicariously like how we play God with videogames and streaming? 

Posted Image

It's probably unnecessary to point out how such things as love, honor, or worship would be in a system of predestination. Hollow and pointless. Would God really find pleasure in this?

Why do we find pleasure in it?

I keep seeing how God sees us like how we see animals, and if we are through some faiths considered to have been made in His image that further supports the idea. Our relationship with animals is very complicated, ranging from love to hate to slaughtering for food without malice at all, so why not the same for God? 

Let's set aside predestination. Like many philosophers and others suggest, let there really only be The Now. There is potential, there is possibility, but all that is actual is only Now. The past is done, the future is not "here" yet. All that Is can be wrapped up in the given state of reality as it is on the only experiencable moment that has efficacy to reality: Now. Every moment, reality is making itself. Creation is a current (and ongoing) event.

How do we consider God's omniscience here? God would have a continuously updating awareness of Now, across all Creation. The "past" would be embedded in the "present" by a sort of historical log of "state regression". One could map causitive events which lead to the present. Knowledge of the future could be computed from the extrapolation of history and the acute, perfect awareness of each and every state transition at the very moment it would happen.

If we go with the Christian model, "The Now" is all of time for Him, seeing Everything and Everywhere All at Once. To God the passage of time would be but an instant, while we live it out very, very slowly. 

Posted Image

Another mitigating factor is that God, as the source and movement of all Being, also is time. God, being atemporal by nature, has "all the time in the world" between state transitions to account for the consequences. In a material sense, this is God-As-Physics, providing the most mechanistic-yet-fair system of consequence (among many other things). An illustrative limit is met here, since it isn't a proper analogy to use the imagery where God is sitting back thoughtfully between every moment. Since this is literally "outside of time", it is "metatemporal"; it doesn't "take any time" and would seem instantaneous to any perspective limited to a temporal frame.

The key factor here is that this leaves room for free will and a God able to meet the needs for consistency in an ongoing experience. Choices and actions matter, there is room for consequential and appropriate moral decision-making, and real responsibility can be laid upon the individual. The absence of predestination is the only sane view to have, if one is to consider our lives to have meaning and for God's remonstrations or Will to be important in them.

Why is Free Will so important anyway? If we cannot see the outcomes in advance it's not like we know the difference any more than an animal. 

TL;DR -- Predestination doesn't make sense and is pointless, unless you consider God lobotomized himself and it's all just a masturbatory illusion.  The alternative, the Eternal Now, offers more room for free will and meaning, without excluding anything that really makes God himself.  It's stupid and unevolved to think otherwise. 

It makes plenty of sense as a concept once you go beyond the human constraints of perception. God if He can really see and know all of this would effectively be, at minimum, fifth dimensional. 



Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 968
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

God is beyond your and my understanding, which sort of defeats the purpose of all these philosophical ramblings. God has a plan for all of us, and there's no reason he has to care even about the law of excluded middle.

However, out of curiosity, is this your actual opinion, or are you mostly borrowing arguments from someone else? Or both?

I have a feeling that most people here wouldn't agree with your characterisation of "the plan" or God's personality, which makes it difficult to start formulating a serious answer to any of the questions. That is, supposing that you wanted answers to those questions and didn't just want to post something poetic. In my humble opinion, your presuppositions appear heavily opinionated and questionable.

last edit on 8/13/2022 6:23:27 PM
Posts: 33413
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

God is beyond your and my understanding, which sort of defeats the purpose of all these philosophical ramblings. God has a plan for all of us, and there's no reason he has to care even about the law of excluded middle.

It still makes for an interesting thought exercise in spite of being locked out of changing our destiny. Perhaps we were by design meant to question it? 

I have a feeling that most people here wouldn't agree with your characterisation of "the plan" or God's personality, which makes it difficult to start formulating a serious answer to any of the questions.

You'd struggle to talk about it because of how others here wouldn't agree with it? 

That is, supposing that you wanted answers to those questions and didn't just want to post something poetic. In my humble opinion, your presuppositions appear heavily opinionated and questionable.

Pretty sure he just felt inspired from seeing other ramblings about God circulating the forum. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 968
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

It still makes for an interesting thought exercise in spite of being locked out of changing our destiny. Perhaps we were by design meant to question it?

It does, yeah. Still, I'm just pointing out how most of these types of philosophical discussions miss the ever-important point that God is beyond our understanding, meaning that most of the premises that underlie the discussion are off-base to start with. I agree with you it can be fun to discuss these things, but I personally think "shut up and read the bible" is a better answer than what is provided by most of these sort of philosophical discussions. Admittedly, it's a boring answer.

You'd struggle to talk about it because of how others here wouldn't agree with it?

No, it's fine to talk about it. However, I'm pointing out it's difficult to answer the questions that presuppose a number of things that are hard to agree with.

Pretty sure he just felt inspired from seeing other ramblings about God circulating the forum.

So it's not really his opinion?

last edit on 8/13/2022 6:36:34 PM
Posts: 33413
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

It still makes for an interesting thought exercise in spite of being locked out of changing our destiny. Perhaps we were by design meant to question it?

It does, yeah. Still, I'm just pointing out how most of these types of philosophical discussions miss the ever-important point that God is beyond our understanding, meaning that most of the premises that underlie the discussion are off-base to start with. I agree with you it can be fun to discuss these things, but I personally think "shut up and read the bible" is a better answer than most of these sort of philosophical discussions.

God isn't 100% beyond understanding though, otherwise we would not even know the thing exists. If God is beyond mortal understanding while otherwise still recognized as you claim, then there is no point in reading The Bible over how that would not make Him make any more sense than without it. 

BT's also read the bible and some supplementary side materials, so it's a wasted point to make that otherwise supports the path of defeatist ignorance. 

You'd struggle to talk about it because of how others here wouldn't agree with it?

No, it's fine to talk about it. However, I'm pointing out it's difficult to answer the questions that presuppose a number of things that are hard to agree with.

Have you not asked a question without expecting to find the answer before? 

Pretty sure he just felt inspired from seeing other ramblings about God circulating the forum.

So he does not actually believe any of this?

I didn't say that at all. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 8/13/2022 6:38:15 PM
Posts: 968
0 votes RE: Free Will, Predestination, and God

God isn't 100% beyond understanding though, otherwise we would not even know the thing exists. 

God does not need to respect the law of excluded middle, which you presuppose here.

BT's also read the bible and some supplementary side materials, so it's a wasted point to make that otherwise supports the path of defeatist ignorance. 
Sure. However, you agree with the statement. You think it is a valid point, even if it is trivially true to you.
10 / 32 posts
This site contains NSFW material. To view and use this site, you must be 18+ years of age.