Sociopath Community

tpp said: 

Turncoat said: 

So you mean to tell me God can't see all of time and space?

I'm saying that I am not convinced that among Christianity's many tenents is that God can see all of time and space. Prove that God can see all of time and space. You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you.

Weird, you're the first Christian presentation I've ever met to think He doesn't have that ability, and thereby that He could be fooled through one means or another. Sure though I can do some quick research: 

Space:
"And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account." - Hebrews 4:13
"Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord." - Jeremiah 23:24
"For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him. You have done foolishly in this, for from now on you will have wars.”" - Chronicles 16:9

At best for 'space' you could argue that there may be places outside of his reach, like if there's somewhere above Heaven, but the implications of the text seem to suggest otherwise. 

As for Time, it gets a bit murkier but enough passages show that He can see our entire timeline, rendering him at the very least a Fifth Dimensional Being. He uses words like 'purpose' and 'plan', but also makes claims that account for how He can already see it: 

Time: 
"You have decided the length of our lives. You know how many months we will live," - Job 14:5
"Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand." - Proverbs 19:21
"Before a word is on my tongue, you, Lord, know it completely." - Psalm 139:4
"I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose." " - Isaiah 46:9
"Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them" - Psalm 139:16

Mentions of The Rapture also are on par with Prophecy, which comes from Future Sight. There's also the stories of Isaiah, who could tell the future correctly because of his worship over 'The One True God', while God flexed towards false idols that those who are not of God cannot tell the future. Even Jesus knew of how he'd be betrayed by one of his own with only a fraction of 'The Father's power. 

What would you argue is outside of God's grasp and vision? Christians would typically argue he knows everything with passages like: 

Both: 
“For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything” - John 3:20

If he knows everything, that's basically like seeing all of Time and Space isn't it? 

Buttered Toast said: 

Turncoat said: 

I've cumulatively read The Bible before, mostly in chunks rather than all at once, and have spent a lot of time debating with believers as well as drilling the concepts with my father who's also shown himself to be a skeptic of a similar strain. 

You should read it sometime, it's a nutty read. 

 Maybe not TV Tropes per se, but more the use of pop-culture in a TV Trope-ish way.  I've read the Bible three times, cumulatively (which only counts for once) and two front-to-back times. 

How is it TVTrope-ish to look at Bible passages within a different spin? These are things literally claimed within their texts, and it's up to us to see what those things mean. The claims people are trying to tell me are true have ramifications, ripples in the realm of causality, that raise many questions over the what's and why's. 

Our base of knowledge is much grander than the original texts, and as such we can ask much deeper questions when it comes to the nature of God. 

Are you familiar with the Urantia Book, CTMU or Spiritism?

Nope, should I be? 

And I'm sure you know about all the other efforts to bring outside religions into the fold by appealing to their beliefs, such as purgatory and the fae and pagan beliefs.  Christianity is renown for its long history of "cultural appropriation".

There's an irony in how God shot someone down for trying to mix Paganism with Christianity, yet that's precisely what's happened within most conversion situations not too dissimilar to our modern holidays. 

Even much of Satan's symbology is borrowed from other religions' divine figures. 

What's to say that those passages aren't metaphorical? The Bible also claims God asked Adam "where are you?" If taken literally, like you take every other passage, this implies God didn't know where Adam was.

The Bible is not a scientific book. It's a story. You're reading it like an autist.

Hence why you don't understand what Christianity is or who God is. You lack connection with God.

It might be worthwhile to consider Thomas Campbells "My Big TOE" thing.  He really pushes the simulation metaphor.

Consider the difference in how a fly and a human perceive the transition of reality's state moment to moment; how they perceive time differently.  The frame rate of your conscious existence or perception.  Imagine there is no past or future, in the sense that our immediate experience is of what we call "now".  (Even this is handicapped due to the speed of light and other factors.  Technically, all things are the past.  Only your conscious experience seems "now".)

Our brain, which we can argue is its own wetware computer that takes and shares input, working on a processing "clockspeed".  I think it's like in the neighborhood of 40Hz?  There's massive parallelism and other information processing going on, but what you're aware of consciously is in a narrow band.  This is even analogous to the color spectrum and how narrow a band that is for our perception in comparison to the whole of the electromagnetic spectrum.  Meaning, if you're fast enough, all time might look like it's standing still.

Imagine the entire universe is the mainframe computer here.  It has all the time and resources to consider all the vast number of worldlines, along with their likelihoods in comparison to each other, based on your total knowledge of the system.  You can stop or start, pause the simulation.  The future hasn't happened, but you literally have all the time in existence in which to make the precise, perfect response in anticipation.

There are concepts of Metatime and Metacausation.  The real trouble anyone has in accepting this is totally biased on the human experience.  Can you imagine what an atemporal consciousness would be like?  Can you imagine literally being the entire universe, literally being time?

tpp said: 

What's to say that those passages aren't metaphorical?

Lots of people who are card carrying Christians take it as if it were literal, and those are the ones that make for more fun arguments. 

If you're willing to fall on the "It's not meant to be taken literally" explanation then there's nothing for me to say. At this point you'd be entirely presuming what it means by leaning towards your own understanding, which many of them would reply with something like: 

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 
in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

Once you're taking it into your own interpretations, it's not the same as most others anymore. 

The Bible also claims God asked Adam "where are you?" If taken literally, like you take every other passage, this implies God didn't know where Adam was.

He could have been asking rhetorically for Adam's benefit, unless we're to take Eden as being outside of both Heaven and Earth for some reason. 

The Bible is not a scientific book. It's a story. You're reading it like an autist.

It's taken by most who believe in it as 'science', even down to the precise numbers they list. 

Why would they list such precise numbers if it wasn't to be taken literally? 

Hence why you don't understand what Christianity is or who God is. You lack connection with God.

Apparently so too do most people. Perhaps you're one of the 144,000? 

Turncoat said: 

Buttered Toast said: 

 

Are you familiar with the Urantia Book, CTMU or Spiritism?

Nope, should I be? 
 

Buttered Toast said: 

Turncoat said: 

Buttered Toast said: 

 

Are you familiar with the Urantia Book, CTMU or Spiritism?

Nope, should I be? 

Only insofar as it would aid me in not having to explain more than I might need to.

I have not read much on the works of people justifying why The Bible doesn't have to make complete sense. 

Turncoat said: 

Apparently so too do most people. Perhaps you're one of the 144,000? 

 lol, well it would certainly fit in with the belief or claim they have for being in the top 0.1% in intelligence.  Why not also the only 144,000 worthy of surviving?

Turncoat said: 

Buttered Toast said: 

Turncoat said: 

Buttered Toast said: 

 

Are you familiar with the Urantia Book, CTMU or Spiritism?

Nope, should I be? 

Only insofar as it would aid me in not having to explain more than I might need to.

I have not read much on the works of people justifying why The Bible doesn't have to make complete sense. 

 Pfft.  Alright.

Buttered Toast said: 

Turncoat said: 

Apparently so too do most people. Perhaps you're one of the 144,000? 

 lol, well it would certainly fit in with the belief or claim they have for being in the top 0.1% in intelligence.  Why not also the only 144,000 worthy of surviving?

I've seen more reply insofar as to claim that the number 144,000 must be symbolic, that surely more than that many will make it to Heaven before alluding to a dead grandparent or some shit. 

When you really look at how many humans there's been from the beginning until now, it makes God's plan seem all the crueler.