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Posts: 32790
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

Are you still talking to me, even though you said you would finally be quiet?

"Perhaps". 

You were the one trying to shut down discussion, so I figured that I'd let you have it. If you don't want silence then by all means we can keep talking, but if you want it to actually go anywhere you'd need to bother with some level of reciprocity through actually tackling what others are saying and the divvying out of non-tangentially related sources. 

Your consistent aim is to distract from actually addressing what others are saying, which is fine but I'd rather you be upfront about it. 

If the first word that comes out of your mouth isn't a sign of reciprociality and willingness to compromise I have no interest in it.

Yes you do, you're even mirroring mine at this point. Posted Image

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 8/8/2020 4:15:43 PM
Posts: 66
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

I made a claim, you did not disagree with it.

You made a counter claim, I disagreed with it, and asked you to provide some sort of a backing. You failed to provide any.

You rage quietted and started shouting how I'm pulling ad hominems, strawmen, and arguments from ignorance.

I asked you for evidence of strawmen, ad hominems, and arguments from ignorance. You had none, so you threw yourself into a full-on berserk SJW rage claiming you do not need to justify anything because I did not back up my original claim which you didn't even disagree with.

Posts: 66
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

Mind you, I'll be happy to get to scientific sources with Inquirer as soon as we define a basis for what should be accepted into the conversation. Now be silent finally like you claimed you would 10 posts back.

Posts: 32790
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

You could just as easily be using the stamina you're using over this fit to otherwise participate. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 66
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

After 11 posts you're still at it?

Posts: 32790
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

After 11 posts you're still at it?

Posted Image

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 507
1 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

This is at a dead end if it comes down to a mindless citation race so let's back up a bit before moving on. Do you agree that you can find a research article to support almost any a conclusion? How do you propose to fix that issue? I can keep quoting research that supports my conclusions and you can keep quoting research that supports your conclusions. Neither of us are experts in any relevant field.

I disagree we're at a dead end. While we could potentially end up in the loop you describe we're definitely not there yet. I also disagree that the research I've linked is fringe and/or not very widely-accepted. I'm not an expert, obviously, but everywhere I look the nature vs nurture discussion still seems to be in full swing. The way I see this going somewhere is if you respond to my specific concerns with links of your own, just like I did. If we're both intellectually honest we should be able to get a good sense of the lay of the land that way and that should be the first step.

My proposal was to focus on studies that are subject to less bias and have well-accepted conclusions by the scientists actually working in the field, like twin studies. The Flynn effect would then be disqualified from the discussion immediately because nobody understands the cause of the Flynn effect or even if it is a real thing. There are at least 5 different potential explanations none of which are favored enough to make any conclusions.

Why wouldn't the Flynn effect not be real?

Disqualifying it would basically take away the strongest argument there is for a big environmental effect on IQ, so wouldn't that render this whole discussion pointless?

Using my proposed methodology one can reach the correct conclusion regarding several questions where we know the correct answer: Evolution theory, speed of light as a universal speed limit, beginning of the Universe, etc etc, whereas citing random articles which are not generally widely accepted by scientists to have firm conclusions would not necessarily lead to the correct conclusion.

Your methodology would not necessarily lead to the correct conclusion either. Nature vs nurture is a hugely complicated and complex topic with lots of feedback loops connecting the two and the conclusions you've drawn from twin studies are simply not on par with how we've determined, for instance, the speed of light. We have a multitude of direct measurements of the speed of light that all give us the same figure. Similarly, no one is questioning whether the heredity of IQ can be up to 0.8 under certain circumstances. Instead, what is questioned is whether this heritability is necessarily 1) genetic and 2) static/not environmentally affected since those are inferred conclusions and not directly proven. It's thus necessary to look at more data than just the twin studies.

Posts: 66
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

 

Why wouldn't the Flynn effect not be real?

Disqualifying it would basically take away the strongest argument there is for a big environmental effect on IQ, so wouldn't that render this whole discussion pointless?

Do you agree that there is nothing akin to a scientific consensus on the cause of the Flynn effect?

Posts: 5402
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

pillstork

Posts: 32790
0 votes RE: 【SIEGE】

 

Why wouldn't the Flynn effect not be real?

Disqualifying it would basically take away the strongest argument there is for a big environmental effect on IQ, so wouldn't that render this whole discussion pointless?

Do you agree that there is nothing akin to a scientific consensus on the cause of the Flynn effect?

The data itself still shows a rise in IQ, and while the explanations themselves for the why are as speculative as most things in Psychology it's still worth noting the hard test scores themselves. Like most findings in Psychology and Sociology, it's attempting to find reasons behind what we can already observe, and without going into some sort of techno-phrenology we're stuck with Occam. As of now, the attempts have been mostly correlative, which gives us more to work with than nothing. 

While the reasoning why could feasibly be disproven through another explanation, the test data itself is still there. What do you figure is making for the general increases in IQ testing results if it's not a matter of environment or gregarious steering? Is it the fault of the tests themselves perhaps?

There is a generally accepted consensus for this answer in the meantime despite the existence of critics, much like how if the world is round or not is taken by the common layman. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 8/11/2020 5:26:21 PM
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