Xena stated: source post
I'll repost that again if you're so goshdurn proud of it.
Where will you repost it? You reposted the conversation in this thread here. Not in the thread where the quote is taken from and where i showed you are wrong. And i explained this 2 times in this thread, this is the 3rd time. What is wrong with you?
ImNotHer stated: source post
Everything is. So if you're thinking negative thoughts about others, you're harming yourself. Because what you think of others is really what you think of yourself, and self loathing is a prison cell. It's an easy concept to reject because the brain wants to believe it sees things as they really are. It wants to believe it sees other people as they really are. That it can't be fooled. To admit to oneself that everything you think and say is projection, you'd have to go to battle with your ego in a way that isn't comfortable. The human brain is lazy. It doesn't want to have to do very much work when receiving and giving information. It cuts corners and fills in blanks with whatever fits.
It's a really cool belief system to explore. You can really push your boundaries with it.
Personally, I've chosen to study Buddhism. I think there's a lot of similarities but with Buddhism I feel you're taught more realistic goals. Toltec seems to reject all of how the human mind works, where Buddhism teaches you not to let your thoughts define or control you.
Why what you think of others is what you think of yourself? That makes no sense.
I think good and great of some people and i think horrible of others. I can't possibly think of myself both things at the same time. Its not relevant if i see things as they really are, the question is why i would see things as i am, instead of as i think things really are? And how i think other things are do not always mean i think that for myself.
You see people as you think they are and this is good enough, if you are ready for the consequences and have made sure enough for yourself, that you are right, and you are ready to be wrong too.
I do not study or subscribe to anything. But Stoicism seems to be something i relate most to.
It makes perfect sense. You recognize yourself in others, good or bad. If you don't recognize or understand it, the brain will choose from what it knows to make sense of it. What you know is based on personal experience. So you will draw from your personal experiences when trying to make sense of other people.
Yes, but that doesn't mean you are projecting.
It could mean it, but it can also mean you know what is bad, in your subjective mind, so you can see it in others. And because you know what is bad, you can try to avoid it and you might be successful, or you might not be, but in both cases, you can judge others negatively based on what you think is bad.
Exactly. Because what is bad is whatever you have personally defined bad to be. This personal definition is based on personal experience. What you reject in other people (bad stuff) was first rejected in yourself based on conditioning. You did something your family unit or society or religion, deemed to be bad, it didn't feel good to be rejected in this way, so you had to choose. Comply with the family unit and their belief system of what is bad, and reject this bad thing in yourself, or be outcast, continue to do it, and be resentful of the family unit and their belief system of what is deemed to be bad.
The same goes for what is good. You are conditioned and have formed your opinions on what is good based on that conditioning. So what you reward in other people was rewarded in you during this conditioning. You see it as good because you never had to choose to reject it or be rejected because of it. Therefore it's all about you and your personal experiences and conditioning.
Once you recognize this and stop taking everything personal, you stop being so negatively affected by unnecessary thoughts and reactions, and can spend your energy more wisely. What you speak of is basic survival technique. Group everyone into two neat piles of good and bad so you can discard anyone who might affect you negatively. The problem with that in the long run, is you are both of those kinds of people, and you will continue to affect negatively yourself so long as you keep rejecting these aspects of your own self, rather than to recognize and accept them as part of you in a way that isn't so black and white.
The way i look at projection:
"Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It incorporates blame shifting."
I think in this context^, for these impulses or qualities to exist, the human has to act on them as well.
Just for clarification, you can have a good or bad judgment based on things that have not happened to you, like murder lol.
I think that having a notion of bad and good is a very important aspect of your personality. I have been intentionally integrating it in me over the last few years. It makes sense to have such subjective bias and i think you should be negatively effected by things that make sense to you to be perceived as bad. What you can question here is if it makes sense for these subjective things to be important or even perceived as good or bad at all.
You can perceive things as good and as bad, but not people as good and bad. You can see one characteristic of them as good or bad, one behavior, one action, etc. Based on what they show overtime, chronically, you can make an assessment of their overall character and if they are worth something(and what they are worth) according to your subjective believes. And i think this is a good filtration system, if you make your notions for good and bad based on something that will improve your life(which is also subjective). Of course, you should not take it too extremes, imo, just rise a flag, unless the flags are so many that an extreme reaction is necessary.
I do not think you are both of those kind of people(the good and bad parts you imagine). If you can identify a bad behavior in yourself, then you can work towards terminating it. And once, because you can do it, you terminate it, you are no longer that kind of person. To do this, you have to accept you have this behavior(or characteristic) first ofc, only then you can work towards its termination.
At the same time, you do not need to kill people to think its bad to kill people, so you are not that kind of person, while thinking that this kind of person would have a bad trait(the killing of people lol).
This is why i said this sounds like projection, because i do not think everyone who think negative(or good) things about someone, must be projecting themselves(according to the definition i quoted at the start of this post).
You are taught that killing other people is bad. It's a moral social construct, and it is a human one. I know what your saying, and yet you keep making my same point, you just don't see it yet.
I should clarify that you're belief system about what is good or bad starts from the moment you're born. It's not necessarily that you have to do an act to find out it was deemed bad. I definitely spoke poorly in my example. Earlier you said you don't subscribe to anything, but you do. You subscribe to a basic societal belief of what is wrong or right.These concepts did not originate with you, they were deeply ingrained. You want to use projection based on psychology and yet psychology is an infant in comparison to Toltect and Buddhism. So it stands to reason that psychology has narrowed it viewpoint when it comes to projection.
Now, this doesn't mean you should stop seeing murder as wrong simply because it's a human construct based on human morals. The idea is not about nihilism. It's about recognising the truth about right and wrong, understanding your own thoughts and where they originate, and that you alone are your human suffering. Other people can do "bad" things to you, and they may hurt, but that emotional hurt originates with your conditioning and what you've been programmed to believe. Not necessarily because what was done to you was "bad". It's about shortening your list when it comes to the belief system I'm explaining. Shorten your list of "bad" by understanding that what other people do and say is about them, not you, and you automatically lessen your experience of human suffering.
ImNotHer stated: source post
You are taught that killing other people is bad. It's a moral social construct, and it is a human one. I know what your saying, and yet you keep making my same point, you just don't see it yet.
I should clarify that you're belief system about what is good or bad starts from the moment you're born. It's not necessarily that you have to do an act to find out it was deemed bad. I definitely spoke poorly in my example. Earlier you said you don't subscribe to anything, but you do. You subscribe to a basic societal belief of what is wrong or right.These concepts did not originate with you, they were deeply ingrained. You want to use projection based on psychology and yet psychology is an infant in comparison to Toltect and Buddhism. So it stands to reason that psychology has narrowed it viewpoint when it comes to projection.
Now, this doesn't mean you should stop seeing murder as wrong simply because it's a human construct based on human morals. The idea is not about nihilism. It's about recognising the truth about right and wrong, understanding your own thoughts and where they originate, and that you alone are your human suffering. Other people can do "bad" things to you, and they may hurt, but that emotional hurt originates with your conditioning and what you've been programmed to believe. Not necessarily because what was done to you was "bad". It's about shortening your list when it comes to the belief system I'm explaining. Shorten your list of "bad" by understanding that what other people do and say is about them, not you, and you automatically lessen your experience of human suffering.
"Earlier you said you don't subscribe to anything, but you do. You subscribe to a basic societal belief of what is wrong or right."
How are you so sure? I do not even know what those societal beliefs are. And i do not view murder as inherently good or bad. I just used it as an example, because many people do.
I only use "projection based on psychology", because if we do not use it, i do not know what it means. If we just use projection in general(like you project your thoughts on the world, but might not be acting on these thoughts), then its not bad or good, imo. It just is.
I wrote a bit more and realized that what you say is something i think i covered, so i deleted what i wrote. If you define your good and bad subjective meanings well, then you have shortened them down to a list of things that matter. I am still unclear as how the philosophy of Toltect makes sense, but that is probably just me. I think its obvious that the definitions of good and bad come from you, so you have to make sure you care about things that matter. I find it unclear how that ties to something more then that, or why the concept of projection is used and relevant. The entire world you see is a projection of how your brain interprets your senses and both your senses and interpretation could be wrong, physically. You just must assume they are not, or you will never be sure of anything and that makes the entire process of thinking meaningless, as it will never lead to results that can be reliable(in your mind). Maybe this is what Toltect means.
ThenFuckit stated: source post
Xena stated: source post
I'll repost that again if you're so goshdurn proud of it.
Where will you repost it? You reposted the conversation in this thread here. Not in the thread where the quote is taken from and where i showed you are wrong. And i explained this 2 times in this thread, this is the 3rd time. What is wrong with you?
SRSLY? Are you fucking for real? lol
Bumping my epistemic privilege thread if you're so gung-ho to do this again...