ImNotHer stated: source post
In reality this person is just another side of dysfunction and in no way less codependent than any of the rest of the dysfunction. They are also just as "weak" as the rest of this messy family because they can't bring themselves to allow other people to be responsible for their own lives. What's more, they help keep the rest of the family in their current position, As long as they are there to take charge and do "the right thing", no one else has to. They also believe that a person who cares and has love for their family, wouldn't just step back and let everything fall to pieces. That's because they've been taught a warped version of love, and they also really do believe that somehow things would be far worse if they just let go.
I'm a little disappointed that you went straight for the kill rather than letting me hang myself first. you've jumped to multiple conclusions formed from baseless speculation. you're assuming i have always been the 'glue' and have never allowed everything to fall apart and everyone to try and kill each other. i did, for a long time, leading to rifts that went on for years, and family members actually wanting to kill each other and attempting to destroy each other in the worst way, from sabotaging each others' work, reputations, filing lawsuits, and possibly worse (depending on how you look at it).
the reason i think i am now able to be the glue is that i'm the only one who went into therapy, not because i am simpy 'better'. and by using objective techniques, i can validate the emotional landmines, understand where not to interfere, and only promote the well-being and civil communication of my family. so far i've seen great results, most people don't enjoy holding onto anger from the past or being bitter.
what do you mean when you say a 'warped sense of love?
At work, same thing. The enabler becomes the leader who makes everything work. When they aren't there, everything goes to shit. That's because they don't bother trying to build on everyone's strengths and keep training and retraining everyone, so that they can become more effective in the workplace.
ahaha why the fuck would i spend time training and building on their strengths? i have no issues admitting i don't give a fuck about anyone i'm not paid to supervise or train, and certain things i am just better than most at. i'd say my problem was interfering where i shouldn't, rather than basking in delight that others can't fill my shoes.
No, instead, they just take over because deep down they believe they are the only one who can do the job right, and that feels good, even when it feels bad. They are the most important person at their place of business. Why would you want to take the time to build everyone up to that level? Why would you want to give up your 'most awesome person who can do everything' award away from yourself, to build a stronger team?
i've never been a CEO, so yea, why would i?
You use the mess to make you look like the strong one. You need it to continue to be that way in both worlds, work and home so you can hold on to that bullshit you're hiding your true weakness behind.
what is my true weakness? the stuff you said above? :D
You felt the need to express disappointment in my technique. Why? I'm not playing some chess match with you, Sugar. Instead of letting you hang yourself? Why would I want you to do that? You're implying that I have you the upper hand by going in for the kill. Again, making this a game where we're trying to outsmart each other. You can make it a game if that feels more comfortable for you when opening up. I see no need to challenge your view on this as long as what I'm putting out there gets the same results. There is no way for me to prove if I'm right or wrong about the conclusions I jumped to about you, because I will never see you in action away from this forum. What I can tell you though is that it wouldn't matter if I had held back and kept digging for a bigger picture of the back story in your glue for the family statement. We are all, only capable of seeing things through our personal experiences when we draw our conclusions. I'm still not convinced I'm wrong even after you let me in on more details. If I'm being honest, your family doesn't sound worth the trouble of saving. They sound like a bunch of self serving assholes from Arrested Development. I won't take your disappointment to heart.
You don't get paid to supervise and that's fine I suppose, to not give a fuck about the other workers, but why not give a fuck? Does it drain you?
What I see as your true weakness is your concept of what strength is. You may have gotten therapy and good for you if you did. But you just seem like another angry person to me. Perhaps more therapy is needed. :)
Sugar stated: source post
Turncoat stated: source post
We as men are conditioned to keep it internal to the point of shortening our lifespans. Both genders are similar in nature despite nurture telling us otherwise.
specifically with work? cos i think everyone should make that sacrifice to be honest. and keeping what internal? tears, sadness, anger? all?
It's everywhere, but naturally it bleeds into work. "Glass Ceiling" is kept alive not only by men.
All of emotion other than anger and some degrees of happiness. It's only fairly recent that emoting's been seen as a good thing for men to do, and that tends to reek of SJW agendas instead of mainstream views. It's not "strong" to show vulnerability.
It is roughly the same though beyond commonalities. Sure, there's the testosterone difference that affects odds, but much of it is pushed further through societal expectations. I have seen many who don't fit the mold who felt like they'd be "forever alone" if they didn't conform to the expectation, and many in a defeatest fashion accept it.
are you speaking for yourself or for everyone when you say things like this ^?
Mostly saying that, beyond differences in testosterone counts, men and women have a lot in common before social constructs force conformity from those who don't fit the mold.
As a man, me too, but why does that have to be about gender?
isn't that the norm for men anyway? until they start catching feelings anyway lol
Being a "fuck toy" is easier. Why is that a gender thing?
I had better responses earlier, but then the public wifi died. :/
i thought when you gave me an analysis this in depth it would be difficult if not impossible for me to wriggle out of it. i'm being honest in expressing disappointment (though not entirely serious disappointment) because i was prepared for a slaughter. i haven't watched arrested development but some of them are just cunts, but they're family. in fact i have the same sentiments as that cray twin at the end of the movie (i'm assuming it was called 'the crays' but can't remember) 'i can't kill you, cos you're my __'. if certain people weren't my family i wouldn't give a shit.
the fact that you're still not convinced you were wrong just reflects on what i said before. that rather than going in for the kill, you could have gotten concrete answers about my role as the 'glue' and then honed in on how enabling and dysfunctional i was, making your point more solid.
i like to reserve my energy for the things i consider to worth worrying about. teaching every dickhead that crosses my path how to be the best they can be is not only stupid and a waste of time, but also incredibly patronizing. some people don't give a shit about their jobs, and others prefer to put little effort in. unless someone approaches me asking for help, the thought of systematically teaching them my way of doing things never crosses my mind.
what is my concept of strength and how is it weak? and btw if you think i'm angry now, you should have seen me before :D i'm still in therapy though but one thing i've learned is that there's no right way to be with yourself. i have a temper, and accepting (not indulging in) that makes it a lot less potent. it's also extremely liberating.
Yes, I realize you will give feedback. As long as the feedback doesn't turn into you distracting me, and turning the analysis about you, into an analysis about me.
How often does the side of you who wants to teach others better for messing with you, win?
As for the family dynamics, I doubt you're the exception of any rule here. I can understand how you'd prefer to believe you've beaten the system. But I doubt that you have. Not yet anyways. To remain attached to such a toxic family tells me all I need to know. Whatever your answers may be to prove the contrary. Which is where the taught a warped kind of love comes in. We are all taught that family sticks together no matter what. That's why even those of us who come from toxic family who try to destroy each other, will stick around and try to make it work. That doesn't make us a bad person or wrong person, it just means we have learned codependent love, is still love, and so we are emotionally tethered. We are hardwired to stick with our family no matter what. You are no exception to that rule. Even if you didn't go to therapy and you didn't find some better way, some way to be the glue, you'd still be in it, finding justifications for it in some other place.
erm..once certain lines are crossed. there's no going back. especially if those people are people i have to be around.
that's not really a legitimate point 'most people are like this, so i doubt you are any different'. lol what? assumptions again, i just convinced them to make peace, accepted who they are, validated what they were angry about and told them how to avoid shit like this in the future. some people can't be changed so i know when to leave it alone. i'm not 'attached' to anyone toxic in my view. everyone has issues and to band them all together because they make mistakes as 'toxic' is just judgmental and kinda amateur. i don't think family sticks together no matter what. but i don't wanna see people suffer when it's avoidable and all that needs to happen is that they drop the stubborn attitudes and keep it together for the sake of children etc.
before i was the 'glue' i was pretty volatile myself. i partook in doing some terrible things to my own family members, for things i was still bitter about. i was far from the glue, i just didn't allow serious violence, that was the only difference. most of the time anyway. in that sense i guess i was kinda rebellious because everyone else seemed to find that semi normal. i think now you're sticking to this narrative even though it's clearly inaccurate. that's my feedback :D
Turncoat: I'm somewhat disappointed at the "gender expectations" portion
The way I saw it, the context was about men Sugar is attracted to, so she named a few traits that make a man attractive to her. Her type, so to speak, the way someone talks about the ideal woman, or the ideal man. No point in turning this into another philosophical sex battle where of course dozens of counter-examples against such stereotypes can be given.
ImNotHer: I found it very interesting what you said about people feeling they are "essential" to family/groups/work. Has Sugar told you she's the one "keeping this place alive" too? XD
My question to Sugar:
I'd like you to describe how you cope with rejection, how you see it, any experience with it and how you react to people you feel "rejected" you.
I'd rather you just not try to wriggle out of it instead of needing me to make it hard for you not to. I'm too lazy to do it the way you think I should. I should rephrase and say I just embrace the limitations I have in some areas because it would frustrate me to try and push past them. I will analyze you in whatever manor that uses the least amount of mental energy, and helps me maintain focus on the areas I find more interesting. If you need it done a different way, there are plenty of others here that will happily take the lead, and no doubt have the attention span and patience to be more methodical. If you still wish for me to do this, lower your expectations and know that it will be sloppy and full of error, but in the end you're still giving us a better look at you.
Tell me more about your temper. How easy is it to set you off? Do you get overwhelmed easily? Have you stayed with the same therapist this whole time?
it was just a figure of speech, obviously i just don't think it was an accurate read of me, at least in terms of family dynamics, not that i was able to sneak away undetected lol. you realize i'm always gonna give feedback right? no need for any type of disclaimer.
quite difficult to set me off these days..i get violent urges still sometimes though, rarely ever serious. but i get impulsive, so i am prone to overreacting sometimes. i think this is where the internal conflict part comes in. it's like one part of me laughs at people who start shit with me, and i usually leave it at that. but there's this other mindset that comes into play at times. this 'how dare you' kinda mentality (lol), feeling the need to teach them to know better than to think their shit will be tolerated.
i have stayed with the same one this whole time.
You're right. I am sticking to this narrative wether it's right or not. How does it feel to be on the other side of that? :D
Off the subject a tad but not far from it, do you think you could settle for an ordinary life or do you feel you have an extraordinary purpose to fulfill?