It becomes natural after a while. My favorite is to ask a loaded question about a subject I want their opinion on, see if their explanation matches up with what their body language is speaking.
Wow. That sounds like a crazy environment. I can understand how that would be useful but at the same time make you paranoid. Do you think some of your paranoia came from your upbringing, or do you put it all down to physical stuff such as lack of zinc?
I went to a school for kids with 'problems' for a while, and there are some parallels there. We had daily therapy and meditation sessions, loads of stuff like that, and we were encouraged to be each others' therapists, analysing each other etc. It definitely taught me to know when to be on my guard, and what questions to ask of others to get what reaction. I think more practical training in body language would have been really useful though.
If you have any links to the pdfs and websites you read, it would be very much appreciated :)
Environment definitely played a factor, but most of what I saw was it messing with people's nature. There were people freaking out, crying, dropping out, lashing (to the point of bleeding and bruises) at each other physically to the point of injury alongside occasionally attacking teachers, it was a chaotic mess that somehow had us come out on top of things at the cost of our mental health. With myself as the only sample I'd have assumed it was mostly physical, since I could keep up with the crazy work load by just not sleeping some nights if not racing the instructor during corrections, but meeting old classmates shows so many nervous ticks and habits alongside a lot of the training still solidly in there in ways we readily recognize by just looking at things like movement and posture. A lot of them came out of the place ridiculously oversensitive from the trials and near-constant yelling from stressed out instructors trying to function under the crunch time they were thrown into. Their lives at home weren't easy ones either, but this school tried to keep us years ahead in a condensed frame of time that drove a lot of people to their wits end, if not towards meds. This meant hours of homework from the first grade onward while also practicing songs and dances. Myself and some others grind our teeth in our sleep, some have nervous ticks, and others had disorders they entered this world with interestingly exacerbated if not transformed into something else from the experiences.
The yelling thing hurt people pretty badly at first, but in time we grew to expect it. We began to see if they were yelling at us they would give us less homework, if not a breather from how tiring the ballet, dance, gymnastics, martial arts, P.E, and recess proved to be as a daily thing. Come to think of it, it's probably why I sink into an emotionless boredom when people start yelling at me. I wonder if others from that school have the same tendency...
The school was the sort of diabolical to have little kids poison each other with stuff like laxatives to prove a point, purposely acquire and spread lice to students from a room the principle never had fixed just to watch the rate that it spreads, hand out expired candy as a birthday treats (lost a tooth that wasn't even loose that way), steal things just to watch them suffer, purposely spread illness to laugh at their misfortune, anything to cause the sort of drama that makes a scene to be laughed at in hindsight. This combined with the theater element likely is what made for my interest in poisons. It was an environment that trained people how to be fake while giving them an intense workload and no alternatives for escaping it, so it made for some pretty nasty people who aimed to have others feel pain to make themselves feel better by comparison. I was a bit more of a middlegrounder, laughing at the notion of the gender segregation expressed as little kids so that I could play both sides and gather twice as much information. This school also had uniforms and hair length regulations, which eventually lead to a scuffle between the fitness-based teachers and the principle about what the shoe regulation should be. Exercising in Keds fucks up your toes pretty badly.
It's sort of creepy how much of "me" now is from that time. Everything after that was mostly me being bored of the lack of stimulation and finding other instructors weaker for not being able to control a classroom.
"We had daily therapy and meditation sessions, loads of stuff like that, and we were encouraged to be each others' therapists, analysing each other etc."
Ours had none of that. If we didn't fit the mold, we were yelled at pretty severely. It lead to kids trying to take out their pain or frustration on other students in a variety of ways since the parents expectations were generally harsher. Any kid playing the role of therapist was typically just gathering information.
"If you have any links to the pdfs and websites you read, it would be very much appreciated :)"
Here's an old post I did anyway. I'll have to dig a bit more to find some older stuff since most of it was in my old laptop's bookmarks, but in the meantime here's what Post Modern Sociopath linked me on the Nabble Forum.
"When you say microexpression studies...how do you study it? Do you actually read stuff about it?"
When I was little we were given acting exercises that thrived off studying the face for theater in a school that dedicated over half of it's emphasis on it. We had games where we had to mirror their expressions and body language while the other would guide what we were mimicking, and some of us enjoyed it to the point of those sorts of games being our fun at recess. We'd also watch movies and be given questions based on how the characters expressed during the film, the acting talent/techniques shown, etc. For each bit shown we were given an emotion label to attach to it, and then attached context to those labels. After a while, it became apparent that the entire school had that experience and all of them were using it as their means of understanding those around them. We'd subtly been trained into microexpressions without knowing it was anything related to psychology, and the environment it created made everyone into little schemers that aimed to provoke those responses as if the responses of weakness themselves were a form of losing. We also learned dance from syncing our movements up to the instructors, and had martial arts classes within the school that pushed the importance of watching for moments where they telegraph their intentions to counterattack before it's executed fully. It was a great environment for keeping people sharp, and leaving that school was like lowering the difficulty significantly, people suddenly displaying emotions extremely vibrantly and obviously instead of something like rapid blinking, not even aware that they'd benefit from shrouding such things. To top it off, they seemed to not mind showing how they actually felt, which made no sense to me and initially had me assume they must be faking it. I ended up surrounding myself with those who were more like those I once knew instead of adapting to that way of being.
Once I got to college I'd found out about them by that label from the silly show Lie to Me. While it was a rediculous piece of work, it still had me go "Wait... there's a name for this, and it's backed with reasons of psychology!?". I then looked into microexpressions and Ekman, both from online PDF scans and websites a few years ago alongside discussing the topic with multiple professors to see if they could point me in any directions, and saw a lot of the data collaborated with the stuff I felt I already knew (alongside learning ones I didn't know), which allowed a crossover between theater experience, paranoia, speculative science explanations that matched up pretty well, and a little bit of data from art lessons and different studies in movement and posture. I downloaded one of those "training" programs to see how I scored (somewhat faster than the ones online), and I was surprised to see high marks, thankfully, since the tutorial portions were corrupted. I skimmed some books to see how much matched up, but otherwise mostly do research when something I see doesn't have an answer, typically from interacting with people who have disorders. Most of the "studying" was cross referencing people's responses with what I found on paper before and after they've betrayed their motivations to match their actual feelings with past data that claimed a connection, but I still do that face recognition program on occasion to remain sharp. I used to more obsessively make notes about those sorts of things as well, but since moving onto Zinc I've found myself less prone to needing that.
At the very least the research helped me feel more secure in trusting it, since without prior knowledge beyond theater to reference it, it seemed too ridiculous, and playing along with it I feared would be me following magical thinking. I admit a lot of it's being taken on faith, but at the moment it's what makes sense. It's been a while since I did any reading on it, so some of my understanding is probably outdated.
That's... totally intense. It sounds like a horrible experience, I'm sure it had its benefits but it seems kind of unnecessary. It's almost like abuse.
I'm kinda glad I'm not the only person in the world to have a fucked up school experience, though. It's only since I've gone out in the world and 'ordinary' ppl have told me about their school days did I realise actually how far away from normal it all was. In fact, looking back, it was insane.
I have a theory that there are certain ages where your adult personality is formed, and no matter what your experience afterwards it all goes back to that in the end. For me, it was when I started that strange school. I wouldn't say I was traumatised by it, but let's just say it didn't do me any good.
There are some stories I could tell. In the country where this school was, there are loads of scandals coming out about abuse in kids homes and so on, and I'm pretty sure I'll turn on the news someday soon and find that my old school is the next one for it all to come out. But, they're not my stories to tell. I was only there for just over a year, and was very much an observer.
Ours had none of that. If we didn't fit the mold, we were yelled at pretty severely.
There was a mold we had to fit alright, but they didn't get there by yelling. Therapy was pretty tough, the exact opposite of accepting or open-mindedness. Certain answers were the right answers and eventually I learned what those were, although it was purely a linguistic exercise, I wasn't any wiser as to the meaning.
Sometimes we had to sit all in silence with a piece of paper and pen, and write the first thing that came into our heads. In theory this could be anything, there were no right or wrong answers. But then at the end of the lesson the teacher would take them and mark them. We learned the 'right' answer soon enough.
At first I found it difficult to take it seriously, but it was like a little bubble and so intense, it made me very angry for a long time afterwards.
I think generally too much introspection can be a bad thing. I was able to let it go quite quickly, and think of it very rarely nowadays. But the ones who took it really seriously and poured their hearts out in therapy are the ones who are really fucked up now. It's like they almost gave themselves problems just by overthinking things.
Thank you for the links :)
"That's... totally intense. It sounds like a horrible experience, I'm sure it had its benefits but it seems kind of unnecessary. It's almost like abuse."
Strangely, it was the best time of my life.
"Therapy was pretty tough, the exact opposite of accepting or open-mindedness."
Then how could they call it therapy?
"We learned the 'right' answer soon enough."
Mmm... the instructor that expects their students to be psychic.
"I think generally too much introspection can be a bad thing."
I both agree and disagree. With excess introspection comes adjusting to the process, but it can become either self-indulgent or torturous past a point.
"But the ones who took it really seriously and poured their hearts out in therapy are the ones who are really fucked up now."
Are you sure they didn't have the most problems from the getgo, and that's why they had the most push towards pouring their hearts out?
by Turncoat"Therapy was pretty tough, the exact opposite of accepting or open-mindedness."
Then how could they call it therapy?
You really think therapists are supposed to be open-minded? That's the total opposite of my experience. Either I've just had really bad luck, or the whole profession are a moralising bunch of cunts.
Have you not ever had the experience of the therapist wanting you to give a certain answer but you just... don't know it? I've put a lot of hard work into it, but I'm still really bad at speaking the language of therapy.
"But the ones who took it really seriously and poured their hearts out in therapy are the ones who are really fucked up now."
Are you sure they didn't have the most problems from the getgo, and that's why they had the most push towards pouring their hearts out?
It's difficult to explain... Certain kinds of problems were accepted, even to the point of them being encouraged, but others weren't. Those who turned their rage on themselves, eating disorders, self-harm and so on, were indulged to the utmost. They learned it was the best way to get attention and recognition. If you shared stuff about bad things you did to yourself, it was a way to earn respect, praise and attention. But if you dare be okay with yourself, if you accept yourself as you are or godforbid be happy, then there was definitely something 'wrong' with you.
Anyway, it was a very difficult atmosphere to explain, and some things are best left in the past.
"I'm not sure if I'm looking for that. I only come into contact with therapists if I have to, not because I want to."
Fair enough, I'm not really in any hurry to have people study me anymore either. Mostly, if therapy is ever considered, it's better to look through a few instead of assume that the "Doctor" title is enough.
"Perhaps I'm being closed minded, but I just believe that most problems of the mind have physical origins, and there is only so much to be gained by sitting around talking about them."
I actually learned the most about myself through talking to others. It forced the comparison, which helped me realize that which I wasn't. In time I found myself very confused by who I was left relating to and it forced me to really analyze why that might be. Talking instead helped for discovering what sorts of things I ought to be looking into, but I do agree that talking for that group pat on the back seems like a waste. Without others views, I'd have been trapped within my own.
"I think at the moment, science is not advanced enough to have solutions, so I am content with accepting myself the way I am and learning to live with it."
You're right, it really isn't as advanced as it ought to be, but the discoveries made are still interesting with some range of correlation. I have a hard time not believing most aspects of Behaviorism because they try to focus more on the more physical side of it.
"so she started digging further and asking more off the wall questions, which was where the problems started."
What sorts of problems?
"I've never gone so far as to question their tactics, I think because I've always had need to create a good impression so I don't want them to dislike me."
I started off nervous and friendly enough, but then I became offended that they'd try such tactics on me and not expect to be noticed, especially the way the room was sorted out. It was clear that, once I'd given permission for the therapist to tell them about how sessions went, that they wanted to test the traits themselves.
How was I not supposed to notice the indents in the carpet that showed obvious shifting had been done in advance, and the mirror made no sense where it was placed whatsoever, and there was an adjacent room they didn't even try to hide. They were sloppy and I called them on it, in response they labeled me paranoid but simultaneously confirmed that I was right.
I suppose my compulsion to fix the room made for a spectacle on their end when the one talking to me conveniently had to step out. I knew they'd seen me doing it, so I was mentally rehersing how to respond when the one who was asking me questions would return, but when she came back there was no look of surprise on her face, not even a look to show her reorienting her understanding of the room. She already knew because of that mirror, and that didn't sit well with me when they tried to continue on as if nothing happened.
"I'm so skeptical of most practices of psychology that I have a hard enough job keeping a straight face as it is."
A lot of it does make for a load of laughs.
"I hope that in the future ppl will look back and see this as the dark ages of psychology."
Oh they will. Even if the field doesn't advance much further, at some point we're going to be facing an entire age where the majority of people are addicts of some form of medication to the point that it can no longer be ignored.
"I know your problems are unusual, but I think ppl working in the field still should have recognised, that's their job."
They're conditioned overtime to expect the "common" ones. What doesn't help is that the common diagnosises other disorders can resemble. Misdiagnosis is pretty easy to do, especially if not all of it's symptoms have surfaced yet. They only have what the patient tells them to use as a means of understanding, and disorders that span into the 1% range are typically doubted because they are so "rare".
There's also the matter of how not all people in the field have had a patient of every disorder. Do you know how many people in the field have worked with a genuine case of Dissociative Identity Disorder? From my understanding not very many, to the point some people doubt it even exists.
"I abhor weakness, and just have no respect for ppl who encourage it. It does more harm than good in most if not all individuals."
Admitting to weakness is important when it comes to overcoming it instead of ignoring it, but AA often enables it not being overcome through the self, but through a power outside of themselves (typically God). They are purposely inhibiting the potential for growth because they fear empowering them too much will likely bring them back to drinking, and that's largely why I think it's caustic.
"But then how do you go about solving the issues that crop up as problems?"
Thinking about them until they become boring, until the topic is old news instead of a reoccurring shock, when the person finally becomes jaded to it's past impact. It's building a tolerance.
"There aren't always easy answers or explanations, and sometimes just talking and ruminating over issues raises more questions than answers. Sometimes you never get to the bottom of something, or there just aren't any easy answers."
What's wrong with more questions? I personally see no reason to stop digging, and easy answers tend to miss details or be too simple to be taken seriously without elaboration.
Learning from delving into the past can stop mistakes from reoccurring if not how to optimize your own behavior, so focusing on the past can improve the future as long as you don't let yourself get sucked into it. I've found little to no good to come from ignoring my own questions towards myself.
"I wonder what you would've turned out like if you'd gone to that other school..."
I'd probably have discovered my masochism sooner anyway. A lot of me reflects the things I picked up from there, so I'd probably be an entirely different person.