I've got BPD tendencies.
Figures, then. Sounds like you're justifying your codependency issues, no?
It seems the only reason someone wouldn't be loyal to someone loyal in return, is (...) lack of concern about their character....
Yes, and why do you expect the person to be concerned about your character? Just because you're concerned with theirs?
No, I'm trying to understand different people's perspectives.
Lack of concern about their own character, not mine.
Why should I be full of faith with another?
This is probably why I have no lasting relationship to speak of in recent times. I simply do not believe in the "faith" aspect.
I either know they are being forthright and honest with full transparency or I know they are stinking rotten liars!
by Claire
by woosterSounds like you have a somewhat muddled notion of 'loyalty', Claire, misinterpreting it as 'faithfulness in relationships' or something like that.
Loyalty is sticking by someone's side, no matter what - even if the person commits something unspeakably despicable. Loyalty involves overriding (or even betraying) your own principles in favour of someone else. (I have max. 4-5 people in my life i'd do that for, including blood-relations (kids + sibling).
My notion of loyalty for relationships with a partner includes faithfulness as well as sticking by someone's side. If sexual exclusivity is part of an agreed upon aspect of our relationship, then I see betraying this condition as betraying my loyalty to that person. Do you disagree with that?
Right, so if you are "betraying your own principles in favor of someone else", then part of loyalty to a partner would mean adopting their principal of faithfulness, if that is important to that person.
Perhaps I was not clear enough. I wasn't talking about loyalty to someone who "may not even like having their loyalty to you". When someone demands loyalty and respect, and the partner then gives this loyalty, there is a mutual agreement that this is a condition of the relationship. It is not voluntarily given, it is under the expectations that loyalty will be returned.
I still think you're misunderstanding the whole concept of 'loyalty' by reducing / simplifying it into relationship affairs. Loyalty is a voluntarily extended, no-matter-what / no-returns-owed thing.
If sexual exclusivity is part of an agreed upon aspect of our relationship
If anything has to be agreed upon upfront in any relationship (other than finances perhaps), then it's doomed to failure to begin with.
I happen to be monogamous by default - it's not a conscious choice but a personal quirk of mine. Thus i tend to hook up with people who are likewise by nature, no agreement (compromise) required on either side. I understand and appreciate polygamy, it's just not something i'd be arsed with myself (i'm not much a people's person), nor on my partner's behalf by proxy.
then I see betraying this condition as betraying my loyalty to that person. Do you disagree with that?
Yes i disagree, as loyalty is a voluntarily given (non-mutual) condition, therefore cannot be betrayed. It's not a mercantile deal.
Anyone with teenage kids / sibling fights / silly parents (or the combination of all) under their belt will know that loyalty is betrayal-proof in the long run.
Right, so if you are "betraying your own principles in favor of someone else", then part of loyalty to a partner would mean adopting their principal of faithfulness, if that is important to that person.
Depends how important that person is to you. If their principle is polygamy, are you willing to give up your expectations of faithfulness to adopt their principles?
When someone demands loyalty and respect, and the partner then gives this loyalty, there is a mutual agreement that this is a condition of the relationship. It is not voluntarily given, it is under the expectations that loyalty will be returned.
When someone demands loyalty and respect - or demands pretty much anything - , then you better run for the hills as the person is likely a controlling, insecure, needy, clingy, self-delusional wreck who should stay out of relationships with other people.
there is a mutual agreement that this is a condition of the relationship
It's not mutual but controlling on one party's behalf.
It is not voluntarily given, it is under the expectations that loyalty will be returned.
Wrongful expectations shall not be fulfilled.
Trying to change another person's nature (principles etc) to your own liking is wrong, no matter what.
by ClaireBut what's the alternative? Marriage gives you the opportunity to raise a family. And a family provides the security and comfort of a 'home'. It is still seen as an indication of success.
I 'raised a family' and i''m still married - so what? I do like very much the individual members of the family for who they are, and on occasion (Christmas) the idea of a unit of it for what it is. But security? comfort? success?? You're deluding yourself. Even though the kids turned out a huge success, that's owned to them personally (and to a lesser extent to us parents perhaps), and not to some abstract societal construct.
The reputation of one who is 35 and married, with a good job and respectful kids is much better than that of someone who is 35 and unmarried.
Is it?? Never occurred to me so.
I think one's position in society offers numerous opportunities and comforts.
It doesn't. It's money what offers comforts and opportunities. Societal position you can't even wipe your arse with - trust me, if i could, i'd have traded it in long ago for money (what money could buy me = the right property in the right location / climate).
At some point, doesn't everyone desire stability, in some aspect of their life?
No, not at all. Frankly, stability / security and all that shyte are an alien concept to me. Perhaps i'm too stable for my own good, but the idea of stability / safety makes me feel uncomfortable bordering on claustrophobia.
I am loyal related to the promises I make.
As a result, I am not one to make promises often, even if possible betrayal or whatever wasn't crossing my mind. A promise risks me becoming roped into something where I didn't see all the details in advance in a detrimental way, while doing it without a promise means I have a way out.
by Claire
by Luna Preyi don't believe in marriage.
But what's the alternative? Marriage gives you the opportunity to raise a family. And a family provides the security and comfort of a 'home'. It is still seen as an indication of success. The reputation of one who is 35 and married, with a good job and respectful kids is much better than that of someone who is 35 and unmarried. I think one's position in society offers numerous opportunities and comforts. At some point, doesn't everyone desire stability, in some aspect of their life?
What's the alternative? Well that's a ridiculous question. I suppose you also can't see an alternative to going to college, working a 9-5 white collar job, having 2.5 children, living in a suburb, dying in a nursing home, or wearing Abercrombie?
For one, you could have a long-term partner, but not get legally or religiously wed. You could also have many short term partners. Or many long-term partners at once. Or no partners at all.
You hardly need to be married to raise a family. You don't even need a partner. On the off chance that I ever decide to have children, I'm going to do it alone. (Well, not the conception part. XD But everything else.) On top of which, not everyone needs the "security and comfort of a home", and some get it from sources other than a spouse or children.
How is arbitrary implied success an argument against alternatives to marriage? Do you do everything you can, whether you want to or not, to make yourself appear more "successful" to people? If so, get a therapist. That's not normal.
And assuming this imagined importance of reputation is legitimate, if you can't build your own reputation without getting a man and popping out a couple kids, then the feminist movement has failed you, my dear.
No, not everyone does desire stability. In fact some can only thrive on instability. And as previously stated, not everyone needs a spouse in order to feel secure. In fact, that's pretty fuckin' weak, if you ask me.