"Some schizophrenia and multiple personalities can be caused by demonic influences."
But how can you tell which are and which aren't?
"MacNutt's book on HEALING he also mentions a schizophrenic patient who is healed by deliverance prayer."
Did they do any follow ups with the patient? Schizophrenia isn't always a 24/7 affliction, some people's come in episodes. She could have just become lucid from the placebo effect, and then was turned loose still affected.
Hi tc sorry im typing on cellphone. Yes you are right there needs to be longterm studies and repeat studies. Dr. Peck recognized the need for formal medical research. With his two patients he was assessing if the stages and the signs of cure could fit a set rubric based on obserbation and interviews. He noted a distinguishable change in their free will, ability to reason and make choices on their own and what the priest had called humility and being more open and receptive not rebellious and rejecting. These things ate subjective and would require more objective measure. What i would add to the study is recording brain scans so you can see before and after in a scientific way. However the main factor is the degree of forgiveness. For secular forgiveness studies this is based on client interviews. Im not sure you can measure that scientifically but at least you can show reports of forgiveness or unforgiven conflicts willcorrelate with higher or lower success rates. Until formal studies are done, people are traditionally learning abput tjis by trying it themselves. At some point when the people pushing research are more organized instead of scattered and working independently, tjese methods and the studies will.become common knowledge. Its just that the groups are not united. There could be longterm research done and the other groups dont know about it. I know someone who had her case of liver disease documented. And the 1999 edition of HEALING mentioned a medical team that documented rheumatoid arthritis cured by the healing prayer. The results are individualized as are each patients conditions, so it is taking longer to prove since no teo cases are the same. There are also cases of ppl cured of unnatural homosrxuality caused by abuse. That is suppressed too and mixed up in the media with false methods that are dangerous and dont work. So the real practice of spiritual healing is also confused in the media with fraudelent faith healing. It will take concerted effort to prove the validity of whoch cases due to.fraud.
As for which cases can be healed, that is like asking which cases of cancer can be healed, put into remission, or cant be changed.
REVISED
It depends on the person the degree of response, and how long it will take to become completely free and clear. At least spiritual healing does not cause toxic side effects like chemotherapy or addictive medications. People experiment with those treatments all the time, directly on patients, with no guarantee they will work or will not cause worse problems even death. Those are not proven to cure the "cause" of cancer, and yet people still try those at greater risk.
Hi Turncoat. Sorry the placebo effect does not work on forgiveness therapy. You cannot "fake" forgiveness by pretending like a patient forgave something. Like pretending to go through the steps of AA and expecting to change. That will not work. You cannot wish or will some of these addictions away, nor will any "placebo" effect work. There has to be the conscious choice and WORK to accept the choice of "forgiveness" for whatever deep rooted spiritual issues are backlogging the person's mind/body where it is stuck where it is. That cannot be faked. I never met a single person who could fake forgiveness and be cured? Have you ever tried to force someone to forgive or pretend they did? It is clear, not something that can be faked. Teh spiritual healing works when the forgiveness is real. With false "faith healing" that is why that fraudulent practice FAILS because people are not truly FORGIVING the past in order to change anything, but just wishing and willing things with their words. So Turncoat, if anything, this proves the placebo effect does NOT WORK.
Also MacNutt makes very strong points, similar to your questions about which schizophrenic cases are caused by demons that can be exorcised and which can or can't be healed and how do you know etc.
He has written about the issue of "healing homosexuality" to address both the misperceptions that "all cases are unnatural and demonic and should be cured or something is wrong with that person" and that "all cases are natural and none should be forced to change." What he found, and my other friends also who counsel people recovering from sexual abuse, is that SOME cases are unnatural and will change after the person is healed of the sex abuse, and some cases are natural and the person can be healed and still remain as they are -- either homosexual or bi or one friend of mine came out as transsexual AFTER going through a healing process. So it depends on the person and their spiritual path in life.
Same if people will live or die with cancer, or addiction/mental illness. We can try to offer and help as many people to be as spiritually healed and healthy as possible, but that doesn't guarantee which conditions will remain or which change.
The number one lesson that spiritual healers need to learn is to "let go" and not try to dictate the healing process, but let the energy of life determine what will and will not happen. It is about receiving the healing energy, not dictating it.
Edvard, dear, whatever "possessed you" to post such an invitation, one session exorcising a real schizophrenic case would likely cure you of any desire to try that again. Either that, or 30 minutes of me going on and on about it, and you'd be done with that!
But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you could handle it. If you either have a lethal sense of humor, or a darker side not afraid to go all the way through hell and back to heaven, you might be able to cut it. If you aren't 100% serious, if you have any doubts or fears at all, better to stay away. This is like messing with radioactive materials; you need to go in prepared or don't go near that kind of energy at all. I wouldn't even joke about it, because it spreads dangerous misperceptions this is made up play stuff.
...so you don't see how the placebo effect is a risk here? They're told in advance that this faith stuff will work, and then in some, it appears to work, because they believe it strongly enough. They might truly forgive, but forgiveness and affliction are not correlational beyond theories.
Your logic appears unfalsifiable (if it didn't work, that just means they didn't really forgive), which is itself something to be wary of.
Keep in mind, you're talking to a Nihilist, one with a history of schizophrenic behaviors from a zinc deficiency. I'm skeptical of your words by default.
Hi Turncoat thanks for this link i watched on my cell phone. Duh !
This does not contradict but backs up the difference between effective natural spiritual healing and why it works vs false faith healing that can either fail or be substituted with anything else that helps the person to "Let go"
Also until there is some way to prove where the energy is coming from in the spiritual before and after stages of healing, this could be left open to be some kind of placebo process going on "provided the necessary steps are still taken not missed." These "steps" that allow the healing could all be considered placebo not some spiritual process.
What i was saying is that those particular steps cant be missed or thats why the healing can be blocked or fail.
As For strawman arguments you and Daddy were also doing that by taking what i said and assuming I meant the superficial healing stuff that can be done without the other steps i said were critical.
The healing i was talking about had two or three levels to it.
Some superficial stuff can be done in one step.
So for your placebo effect to apply to the advanced more invasive process, each step would have to be considered a placebo.
It would most likely fail if you tried just one step by itself.
Ps i agreed with the speaker that there is a factor in removing pain artificially byt nit for the same reasons. With spiritual healing you can cure the cause of addiction causing someone to smoke get cancer tumors and get weak and sick. If you just used surgery to remove the cancer without changing the lifestyle or habit, or if you used a "placebo" to magically get rid of the cancer that onlybaddresses the physical part. But with the deep healing identifying which memories or perceptions are infected with ill will, then agreeing to release those, then accepting prayer or teddy bears or whatever placebo to agree the mind and spirit have chsnged, then those are deeper steps that cant be skipped in cases where thats what is keeping people stuck in addiction and sickness.
So (a) each step would still need to be done as necessary wjether you call it a placebo or spiritua or what or (b) in sime cases a placebo may fail. For example if someones healing process requires letting go with no conditions hopes beliefs or placebo attached, then as long as they use the same placebo the process can fail. There were cases cited in one of the books i cited where ppl used voodoo or some other dark prcess to heal and it bandaged the problem on one level. But for the doctor to heal the full wound and full process, the person had to let go and renounce this first process which you call a plavebo, before going through the other process using light energy even if you call thst a placebo too.
So turncoat this tells me that to study the steps, each point would have to be measured against a placebo. And if the healing fails or succeeds, then check which of these placebos or whatever were used.
My bet is that different beliefs could be used for most of the steps.
But when it comes to the deep cleansing out of darkest energy making simeone sick with demonic type voices or obsessions, that step would not have a substitute. And not only would the christian prayers be unique, but soecific ppl might have to be the doctors for the patients to respond. It coud be that specific and the studies would need to be set up to distinguigh these factors.
Thanks T i appreciate your discernment and attention to detail. If there hasnt been proper research on this field, its because it takes a lot more to address the steps and study each point where a bias could be introduced or a step left out. Thanks