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Posts: 434
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...

Bohemian, I hope you don't mind me saying this....But it sounds like "Taoism" indeed both says "a whole lot of things" and at the same time says "absolutely fucking nothing".

No offense, but what an utterly useless philosophy. I say this with utmost respect for Asian cultures, but that a society embraced such mystic, subjective, and interpretive gobbledegook is hilarious. Friedrich's Übermensch animal story was already bad, but what you're describing is like next level.

Now I'm even more convinced that we need Christianity to save us from such nonsense.

last edit on 3/21/2024 1:14:30 PM
Posts: 2278
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...
Jada said: 

Bohemian, I hope you don't mind me saying this....But it sounds like "Taoism" indeed both says "a whole lot of things" and at the same time says "absolutely fucking nothing".

No offense, but what an utterly useless philosophy. I say this with utmost respect for Asian cultures, but that a society embraced such mystic, subjective, and interpretive gobbledegook is hilarious. Friedrich's Übermensch animal story was already bad, but what you're describing is like next level.

Now I'm even more convinced that we need Christianity to save us from such nonsense.

 You can't say you have upmost respect for a culture and then proceed to completely ridicule one of their fundamental philosophical underpinnings. I suppose if you knew all about it and still felt this way then you can't help how you feel, but you haven't even read the Tao Te Ching yet and you're already making bold judgements (something Taoism would consider quite foolish).

How can I even respond to somebody so self-assured as you? You're not one to be convinced. I'll let the Tao Te Ching reply for me:

 

Laozi said:
When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.

Thus it is said:
The path into the light seems dark,
the path forward seems to go back,
the direct path seems long,
true power seems weak,
true purity seems tarnished,
true steadfastness seems changeable,
true clarity seems obscure,
the greatest are seems unsophisticated,
the greatest love seems indifferent,
the greatest wisdom seems childish.

The Tao is nowhere to be found.
Yet it nourishes and completes all things.
My grandiose delusions are better than yours.
Posts: 434
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...

I've been convinced of a great many things. But yes it would take quite a bit to convince me that Taoism isn't just gibberish parsed together by some old Asian dudes who wanted to purposefully sound vague so you can interpret their text in whatever way you wanted and think they're super insightful.

At least your latest passage has one thing that is objective, which is great. That anyone who doesn't agree with taoists is "basically an idiot."

The rest is hilarious. There are 8 deepities in that passage alone. I could become taoist monk as well, it seems. Here, let me try. Toilet water is actually cleanest water. The slowest man is the fastest. To walk a straight path is to walk in a circle. The oldest man is actually the youngest. A pregnant mother is not pregnant. You're an idiot if you don't buy into this. Wisest man is also the least wise. A windy day is like any other day, except with wind.

Pretty insightful, huh?

last edit on 3/22/2024 2:07:38 AM
Posts: 2278
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...
Jada said: 

I've been convinced of a great many things. But yes it would take quite a bit to convince me that Taoism isn't just gibberish parsed together by some old Asian dudes who wanted to purposefully sound vague so you can interpret their text in whatever way you wanted and think they're super insightful.

At least your latest passage has one thing that is objective, which is great. That anyone who doesn't agree with taoists is "basically an idiot."

The rest is hilarious. There are 8 deepities in that passage alone. I could become taoist monk as well, it seems. Here, let me try. Toilet water is actually cleanest water. The slowest man is the fastest. To walk a straight path is to walk in a circle. The oldest man is actually the youngest. A pregnant mother is not pregnant. You're an idiot if you don't buy into this. Wisest man is also the least wise. A windy day is like any other day, except with wind.

Pretty insightful, huh?

 I mean honestly, I did choose to reply with that particular passage as moreso bait. I actually expected this exact reaction. Now, you say all of this is vague, but it's actually very specific. It is specific about its non specificness. In modern terms, it could be seen as a call to be more flexible and adaptive to changing conditions. The attitude that it calls for in modern terms can be likened (but not equated) to stoicism. 

The thing to realize about eastern philosophical texts is that they're often extremely metaphorical when compared to Western texts, meaning you can't take them exactly literally. You got to do a bit of abstract thinking but if you do this you'll understand what it's getting at. 

So for instance, those 8 "deepities" are all metaphors to demonstrate the viewpoint of Taoism. Taoism is not a philosophy about what you know, it's a philosophy about what you don't know. The majority of people come to at least some conclusions/ideas/judgements/viewpoints that they believe very strongly to be true. But as you can see even from the disagreement between you and I... not everything we believe to be true actually is true. Often there's factors that we don't realize or that we disregard, or we have some kind of blind spot. We may also have biases, mental illness, prejudices, and cognitive distortions that blinding us. So a large part of the Taoist philosophy is recognizing that we have a blind spot.

So let me translate for you:

 

The path into the light seems dark-

Like I said, we have blind spots that keep us from seeing things objectively. It's saying you have to look at those blind spots in order to know the truth aka the light better. 

 

the path forward seems to go back-

When you come to believe something that's not true to be true, you might have to do a little backtracking to move towards the actual truth.

 

the direct path seems long-

If you're blinded by certitude of something that isn't true, then the truth is going to seem pretty far away from you, even alien. 

 

true power seems weak-

This is more of a comment about humility. People that insist strength to be the highest virtue end up stepping on other people to display this strength. If they do this enough they will be resented by the people and eventually overthrown. It should be noted that a lot of the Tao Te Ching is about how to lead a country.

 

true purity seems tarnished-

Humans come to their own conclusions all the time about what is pure and what is tarnished, but obviously a lot of this is hotly debated and there's no consensus. If there's nothing that's unanimously seen as pure, then how can it be objective? It's not like the forces of nature, where no human's opinion is going to change it. And in the Taoist philosophy, nature is indeed part of the Tao. In practice this is saying not to make any certain moral judgements or jump to conclusions. But obviously there's common sense like don't murder or kill, and the Tao Te Ching explicitly condemns violence and force. 

 

true steadfastness seems changeable-

The Tao is basically nature, humans included. Nature does not sit still. To be steadfast in the Tao, you're going to have to be adaptive and changeable in accordance with what's going on around you. That's not to say you should be like a plastic bag floating in the wind, but you should be open and receptive to new information and experience and always ready to evolve in the face of new information, even information that disproves your current beliefs. 

 

true clarity seems obscure-

As you've said, Taoism to you seems to be vague and say nothing at all. I've tried my best to clear up what it's saying and give examples of it in practice, but to many people the fact that it's not giving a very absolute, objective dogma and call to specific action and beliefs makes it seem this way to people. It supposes that people actually know much less for certain than they think they do. 

 

the greatest art seems unsophisticated-

In the view of the Taoist, the Tao itself is considered the greatest art. Explained metaphorically, the Tao is to particular things what the clay is to an art sculpture. Of course the sculpture exists, but it's formed by the clay. Another example would be that the Tao is to particular things what a canvas is to the paint. This line is a call to recognize that while we live in a world of form, it arises out of the formless void. A big point in Taoism is learning to understand that "nothing", is necessary for "something" to exist. After all, if there was no space between notes in a song, if would just be noise. 

 

the greatest love seems indifferent-

It's no secret that love and hate are intimately interconnected. Take for example a nasty divorce. Two people loved eachother very much, and had many expectations for one another. At some point, one or both of them fell short of the others' expectations. This leads to resentment and divorce, and the hurt of divorce can lead to hatred. But what if neither of them never had expectations of eachother to begin with? What if they let eachother be who they are, and appreciate them for who they are. If you can't appreciate somebody as they are, it's best to not enter a marriage with them to begin with. So what this line is saying, is that caring greatly about desires or expectations from somebody else leads to anger, disappointment, and resentment. It's a call to be and let be.

 

the greatest wisdom seems childish-

What makes something childish? A child has less experience, and is considered to be naive. A child has high neuroplasticity and is impressionable. A child hasn't fully formed any definitive, concrete worldview or personality. In a sense, a child is like an uncarved block of wood. Unfortunately, it's easy for a child to be led down the wrong path and be convinced of things that aren't true. Trauma, peer pressure, society, and authority figures around them can instill deluded ways of thinking and approaching the world that can last a lifetime. If a child has been misled, and grows to be an adult steeped in delusion, how can they find the truth? They're going to have to be like a child again. That is, they're going to have to be receptive to new influences and information and not claim absolute certainty on everything. You can only grow when you acknowledge that you don't know everything, and that despite being a grownup you're still as naive about the complexities of this ever-changing world as you were as a child; adults are just convinced that they do in fact know.

 

I hope this clarified some of these lines, and I trust you won't be intellectually lazy in your analysis and reply. 

My grandiose delusions are better than yours.
Posts: 434
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...

You're expecting me to analyze that? It's my thread about Ubermench and you're basically stealing the show with Eastern philosophy and metaphors. What makes you think you have the right to demand anything from me when you contribute nothing to the topic?

But alas, I'm bored and Tryptamine clearly got fed up with Friedrich (or where this conversation with you is going) so I might as well entertain you.

Eastern philosophical texts are about metaphors? You're saying that like it excuses it. Have you ever left the US? My wife is Asian and my kids are half Asian. I am very likely more familiar with Asian cultural influence out of the two of us.

You say that the text requires one to do some abstract thinking, and then you will understand where it's getting at. Maybe that's true, or maybe not. Your interpretation of those passages is as good as anyone else's entirely different interpretation, and there's no guarantee either correspond to whatever the person writing those passages actually wanted to convey, assuming they wanted to convey anything.

But if I want to say "don't kill" why would I choose to say "in the veil of the night the man with bad conscience cleans the floors for a low pay" instead of just saying "dont kill"? I mean what's the tangible benefit of such a contrived way of speaking? And how many people are just going to interpret what I say differently from what I intended to say?

Even when we're doing our best to communicate with each other, we are speaking at each other from a distance separated by miles of different life experiences, and even our best attempts to relate to one another fail. Why would I add basically Yoda speech on top of that and expect that to lead to good moral outcomes?

last edit on 3/22/2024 3:06:54 PM
Posts: 4577
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...
Jada said: 

At what point would we say that a society is Christian, but that Nitzsche was just plain wrong?

 

 

That's a good question. I'd consider a lot of Europe in its history to be not only strong, but to also have Christian societies. But can we say the people running these nations—and thus directing the actions of the state—are operating within Christian morality? Or is that a distinction without much consequence? Kaiser Wilhem II & Prussia come to mind.

Posts: 434
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...

 It's an interesting suggestion, but maybe as you say it doesn't have much consequence. If a society that is Christian doesn't run into the problems friedrich talked about, then the point at first sight seems moot?

Out of curiosity, why bring up Kaiser and Prussia? I'm not familiar with that history; I tried to Google more information about it, but didn't find anything particularly related.

last edit on 3/25/2024 2:22:28 PM
Posts: 4577
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...

Wilhem II was a member of the Prussian state church, and during his reign the church had significant influence on social policy. So in Prussia there was a recognizably Christian society, with a clearly Christian leader. Wilhelm was also a particularly aggressive leader...not very Christlike in behavior.

If Christian societies need someone to not act Christian to maintain them, are we really affirming that Christian societies can be strong as well? Because that sounds like "a powerful Christian society can exist, if it has leadership that can act with moral autonomy". Or do you see the actions of the state and of statesmen as not bound to The 10 Commandments?

last edit on 3/27/2024 4:15:18 AM
Posts: 434
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...

That's an interesting view. No, I'd say they should be bound by the 10 commandments if they claim to be Christian.

However, if as you say Christian societies need someone powerful not to act Christian to maintain them, then I would agree we are not affirming that Christian societies "can be strong". In my opinion, in that case we're affirming that no true Christian society has ever existed, and probably never will. If this really was the case, then it seems like Friedrich's criticism is anyway moot. We shouldn't care about slave morality because it won't make the predictions that Friedrich made, one of which was the downfall of these societies.

But then I'm not sure how this is different from a no-true-scotsman fallacy. A society is Christian if it bends over backwards and lets people destroy them. No Christian society bends over backwards and lets people destroy them. Therefore, no true Christian society exists.

Personally, I don't think Christian societies really are as meek as Friedrich portrays them to be. I'm not sure, for example, if Christian teachings would approve of standing by when a great injustice like mass starvation of people or an unjust war took place.

What I think separates Christian morality and mindset from, for example, Eastern mindset, is the idea of forgiveness. I see a great difference in the mentality of forgiveness that permeates the west, and I can't help but think this was influenced by Christianity.

last edit on 3/27/2024 10:47:39 AM
Posts: 4577
0 votes RE: Übermensch: The great Atheistic Gods who will lead us to the Ne...

I'm not convinced that Christian statesmen need to follow The 10 Commandments. There is a tradition of justifying war within Christianity that I am aware of, but since I'm agnostic, it's something I've never looked into. There's some information about this on Wikipedia. There are arguments for war made from Aquinas, to the various sects of Christianity & beyond...it's a bit out of my depth and interest, but to me the volume of Christian material on the matters of war and statehood indicates to me that the matter may not be as simple as "let your country roll over and take it". Or maybe all of those works are attempts to justify defying The 10 Commandments, and it is that simple. :p

I get what you're saying about the No True Scotsman fallacy, but consider this: Nietzsche perceived a kind of weakness in praising humility and meekness, in what he considered a religion for slaves. And to an extent, Christian morality makes one weak by design, if it limits the amount of damage you are able to inflict. I think you are wanting to be able to claim Christian morality can embody strength...but in this physical realm, order is a break from violence—a homeostasis where all forces have each other in different dimensions of check (think nuclear weapons, economic embargos), where the loss of these checks can be catastrophic. So you can't really have it be both ways, that Christian morality is strong in this entropic physical world, yet the Christian morality is one of peace—unless you can justify violence within Christian morality. But if you can't, how could you expect Christian morality to be strong in a material sense, if people following it are meant to emulate Jesus without much deviation?

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