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Posts: 409
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real
Tacky said: 
Jada said: 

What would be the societal benefits?

 A more realistic and fundamental empathy instead of allowing (through active promotion, not just "human nature" which wouldn't be able to do as much on its own) the big to compete with the little through an emotional and self-gratifying ego propaganda system.

Empathy tends to come automatically to people though, only a select few really need help with it. 

Yeah Tacky Im with TC here.

What makes you think that smart people will develop a better moral system instead of lobotomizing every person less intelligent than them as a matter of eugenics?

Trust me, you people need God, superstition, and magic. The most lovable, kind people in this world are also dumb as fuck. The kindest girl I know? She volunteered to join that Korean sex cult because she thought it would lead her to Jesus. Now she's doing charity work. Incredibly kind.

Nah. God is the way to go if you want to develop moral codes.

 

Tacky said: 

Empathy tends to come automatically to people though, only a select few really need help with it. 

 The kind of "empathy" you neurotypicals have is total predatory garbage.

 You think TC, or, for that matter, anyone left here in this forum, is neurotypical?

I'm neurotypical? Id put peach girl there with me. The most fucked up mentally must be Buttered Toast. Or Thrill Kill. A close tie.

last edit on 12/26/2023 11:53:35 AM
Posts: 4518
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real
Jada said: 
Tacky said: 

 A more realistic and fundamental empathy instead of allowing (through active promotion, not just "human nature" which wouldn't be able to do as much on its own) the big to compete with the little through an emotional and self-gratifying ego propaganda system.

Empathy tends to come automatically to people though, only a select few really need help with it. 

Yeah Tacky Im with TC here.

What makes you think that smart people will develop a better moral system instead of lobotomizing every person less intelligent than them as a matter of eugenics?

Trust me, you people need God, superstition, and magic. The most lovable, kind people in this world are also dumb as fuck. The kindest girl I know? She volunteered to join that Korean sex cult because she thought it would lead her to Jesus. Now she's doing charity work. Incredibly kind.

Nah. God is the way to go if you want to develop moral codes.

Exactly.

Tacky said: 

 The kind of "empathy" you neurotypicals have is total predatory garbage.

 You think TC, or, for that matter, anyone left here in this forum, is neurotypical?

I'm neurotypical? Id put peach girl there with me. The most fucked up mentally must be Buttered Toast. Or Thrill Kill. A close tie.

 I'll take the bait.  Please explicate further.

Thrall to the Wire of Self-Excited Circuit.
Posts: 409
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real
 I'll take the bait.  Please explicate further.

Just my instinct. I have a very good crazy radar. Your level is 'cuckoo'.

Posts: 2479
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real
Jada said: 
 I'll take the bait.  Please explicate further.

Just my instinct. I have a very good crazy radar. Your level is 'cuckoo'.

 This made me laugh , ‘grats 

Posts: 323
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real
Jada said: 
Tacky said: 

 A more realistic and fundamental empathy instead of allowing (through active promotion, not just "human nature" which wouldn't be able to do as much on its own) the big to compete with the little through an emotional and self-gratifying ego propaganda system.

Empathy tends to come automatically to people though, only a select few really need help with it. 

Yeah Tacky Im with TC here.

What makes you think that smart people will develop a better moral system instead of lobotomizing every person less intelligent than them as a matter of eugenics?

Trust me, you people need God, superstition, and magic. The most lovable, kind people in this world are also dumb as fuck. The kindest girl I know? She volunteered to join that Korean sex cult because she thought it would lead her to Jesus. Now she's doing charity work. Incredibly kind.

Nah. God is the way to go if you want to develop moral codes.

 Rationality =/= intelligence. Plenty of stupid people are mean as they have no reflection or capacity to be more than superficially nice if they are even that. Again someone with your amount of priviledge and lofty mentality can easily see things in that superficial way while the infrastructure is as oppressive as ever and people are discriminating and competing on every level towards whoever is the most vulnerable. Then it all becomes justified under the "nice and moral" status quo.

 

(Examples include lolcow culture, police bullying/hair trigger, wealth gap in every class, zoning laws stopping affordable housing and local businesses)

last edit on 12/28/2023 2:58:21 PM
Posts: 33401
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real
Tacky said: 
Jada said: 

Empathy tends to come automatically to people though, only a select few really need help with it. 

Yeah Tacky Im with TC here.

What makes you think that smart people will develop a better moral system instead of lobotomizing every person less intelligent than them as a matter of eugenics?

Trust me, you people need God, superstition, and magic. The most lovable, kind people in this world are also dumb as fuck. The kindest girl I know? She volunteered to join that Korean sex cult because she thought it would lead her to Jesus. Now she's doing charity work. Incredibly kind.

Nah. God is the way to go if you want to develop moral codes.

 Rationality =/= intelligence. Plenty of stupid people are mean as they have no reflection or capacity to be more than superficially nice if they are even that.

Yet there are also smart mean people, and dumb nice people. 

Seems mutually exclusive to me. 

 
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Posts: 323
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real

"Yet" doesn't make sense because it doesn't contradict anything I said lol. You tend to say things that you think contradict but don't. Your debating style is awful and dishonest.

Posts: 409
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real

Nono, Tacky, I've spent a significant portion of my life pondering these questions, and I've concluded that rationality is not attractive nor self consistent as a moral system, at least if you're referring to Sam Harris' version of it. It's buzz words.

It goes something like this..

We can all agree that human flourishing is good for us because if we didn't we would've all killed ourselves. Evolution selects for self preservation. So we're all advocates of our own self preservation and by extension the preservation of humankind.

However, the problem that arises in any rationality-driven moral system is two-fold. Firstly, morality is now subjective, so nobody can agree on what is or isnt moral. Secondly, the system needs to be better than the other moral systems, or its kinda useless. So, rationality needs to address these two issues.

The first one we can address because as long as we believe in our own self-preservation, Sam et al argue, we can derive that human flourishing is better for us than not. It goes like this: I am a human, I like not being stabbed, so I will work together with other humans to create a system where we don't stab each other. Ergo, it is in my best interest to boost human flourishing, even if only for my own selfish desires!

Except, of course, when an individual actor neither believes they can advocate for change or believe their own actions make a significant difference. They can just fuck other people over and get away with it. Our morals are automated and driven by intuition, not logic. Just look at global warming or any significant worldwide problem and how we're dealing with that for proof. We intuit these things.

If you nevertheless accept that we all care about human flourishing, then the idea would be that we can evaluate what actions lead to more human flourishing. Every time we make the wrong decision we just correct our mistake and, ergo, we are lead to utopia over time. So, it's a self-correcting system.

Because it is a self-correcting system, Sam et al. argue it's a better system than the religious alternatives. All the religious alternatives are not evolving, so they can't learn from their own mistakes.

That's precisely why all the Christians still own slaves and stone people. Oh wait, they don't.

Most Christians are taught to value human life, and it's that valuation that acts as a foundation for everything we do, including accepting new traditions and customs. In contrast, rationality has logic as its foundation, but it's not a very powerful driver for motivation. Just look at how war propaganda is driven. It's all sob stories, tragedies, and unfairness devised with the sole purpose of making people angry enough to support the war. Imagine CNN hosting a fucking discussion about the pros and cons of supporting Putin in his Ukraine war. Lol. We already know rationality won't work. We will just go with our intuitiom and what's comfortable and then post-rationalize our reasons after the fact.

But one could argue that I'm using logic to try to attack rationality, so surely we can simply recognize these problems and fix them. I tend to agree with this, and the best evidence we have shows us that religions are good at making us moral. There is no evidence whatsoever that rationality will work nor has it ever lead to demonstrable benefits for a society. It's like communism, where every society that is communist fails and then communists say, bro that wasnt a true communist system. Same with  nonreligious societies like the Soviet union. The rationalists will say, bro, that wasnt a true rational society nor did it advocate for human flourishing. Well my question is why the fuck is it so difficult for us to realize the importance of human flourishing if it's so intuitively clear to all of us that it's important. In contrast, all the evidence we have so far supports religion as a good moral foundation. So all these rational people should really advocate for religious systems.

At school, we should be trained to do good as a matter of intuition and hold God as the highest standard for us to aspire towards. That way, we can address the wide range of people from different intellectual backgrounds with digferent aspirations. Most people don't need to care about rationality but they'll be kept in check, for the most part, if they believe in God. We should teach people to choose to do Good as a matter of reflex, instead of presenting dry philosophical arguments to an audience that doesn't care.

last edit on 12/29/2023 12:45:26 AM
Posts: 323
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real
  • We can all agree that human flourishing is good for us
    No, we can't. The prevailing model of human flourishing is dominance vastly over equality with many people outright denying any virtue or even fair conception to equality by purposely assuming it must be "perfect" by definition.

  • It goes like this: I am a human, I like not being stabbed, so I will work together with other humans to create a system where we don't stab each other.
    The reality is that the system harms people which includes creating stabbing tools that are better at stabbing and other harmful impact tools.

  • If you nevertheless accept that we all care about human flourishing
    The evidence points to the contrary. People care more about competition and realism and anti-naivety/vanity. Yes people want to have their cake and eat it too which is why slavery is a constant reality and is an inherent aspect to this "flourishing."

  • Except, of course, when an individual actor neither believes they can advocate for change or believe their own actions make a significant difference. They can just fuck other people over and get away with it. Our morals are automated and driven by intuition, not logic. Just look at global warming or any significant worldwide problem and how we're dealing with that for proof. We intuit these things.
    People fuck other people over and get away with it and rationalize it. In fact this happens on a systemic level even. They are not driven by logic because those morals are about control, not overall "human flourishing." The damage done to the environment in order to gain an advantage over the environment and over other people was never really a problem for people, if anything it is just that they realize they want a higher quality of life still so people slowly introduce environmental measures. Human flourishing is why these environmental issues exist in the first place, and also why the suffering and enslavement of others is justified.

  • That's precisely why all the Christians still own slaves and stone people. Oh wait, they don't.
    Yes, they do. Slavery is still very much around. It's just redefined to only meet the most theatric idea of slavery (such as whips and brown loincloths) instead of the fact that people are very much financially and physically controlled and threatened in every country. Execution still exists even when threats could be peacefully neutralized via indefinite imprisonment. 
last edit on 12/29/2023 1:25:33 AM
Posts: 323
0 votes RE: The Soul is not Real

(actually nevermind the ai stuff is an eyesore.)

last edit on 12/29/2023 3:59:22 AM
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