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What will happen with China?


Posts: 968

Let's talk about the elephant in the room, China.

At this point, it's already clear that China has surpassed the US in the one area that matters, economy [1]:

China has now displaced the U.S. to become the largest economy in the world. Measured by the more refined yardstick that both the IMF and CIA now judge to be the single best metric for comparing national economies, the IMF Report shows that China’s economy is one-sixth larger than America’s ($24.2 trillion versus the U.S.’s $20.8 trillion). Why can't we admit reality? What does this mean?

That's right. That's one sixth larger than US. It's not a small margin. According to every single projection, that gap between China and US is only going to widen in the future.

So why is economy usually considered the bedrock of a country's superpower status, why not military, political influence, and cultural influence? That's because the economy provides the foundation for the country's military, political, and cultural power necessary to project its influence and maintain its position of dominance in the international community. You can't have good military without a good economy, and you will have no political or cultural power without the economy. Everything else follows economy.

For example, ever since China surpassed the US economy, there have been countless areas where China has already surpassed or equaled USA, including R&D budget, emerging applications, and computing industry. This trend will continue, according to every projection.

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The funny thing is, the Chinese state media has been lynching anyone who wants to talk about this. Basically, they want to make sure nobody finds out what the real economical situation in China is. In fact, they've been clinging to the developing nation status for an incredibly long while. When some of the folks from Chinese universities reported that the PPP has surpassed the USA, the state media widely criticized them. They even went as far as to say that those folks were the reason for the China-US trade war.

I think the big question is what is going to happen in the future. US is pretty much outmatched on every front. The gap is just widening as time goes on. It's already too late for US to do anything about the China situation. China has already become the de facto supreme leader of the world. People just haven't realized it yet. I think the question is, what's China going to do.

Well, according to China, they "don't want expansionism and will never be a global hegemony" and they've been lynching researchers saying otherwise. In fact, they want a world of peace and respect and just want to be left to themselves.

Not buying it. Take a look at any smaller countries that have had conflicts with China, like Taiwan or Japan. They also forced Norway to "apologize" for hosting Dalai Lama, which Norway did because they needed to trade with China. I think it's beyond a doubt that they'll start playing a hand in global politics and asserting their own culture and opinions across the west, including censorship. In fact, they're already doing this in the smaller western countries in Europe, since Europe does fuck-all as an entity, so you can just bully the smaller nations without retribution. There's a long history of pressuring, corrupting and coercing foreign governments to act in support of the Chinese state agenda in various ways, including military intimidation, cutting off trade, bribing foreign officials, grey zone activities, harassment in contravention of professional norms, hostage diplomacy, cyberwarfare and collusion with other outlaw governments. This idea that a country which enforces censorship and criminalizes protests at the threat of violence and execution and has Orwellian like surveillance program that even bans winnie the pooh because it looks too much like the president via a nation-wide great internet firewall, is going to just be nice and wants world peace and will somehow be understanding and supportive of other cultures with freedom of speech, thought, and expression.... Just not buying it. These two cultures are incompatible. They might even have the best intentions now, but a clash is inevitable, given how different the cultures are.

So, for me, I think the future vision is a world that is shapred more like what the vision of the Chinese state-led media is. I don't think there will be expansionism, but free speech will be further suppressed, and we will essentially enter into an era where the Western countries will play a subservient role, and every retribution is met with economic scorn. USA will slowly transform into a second-rate nation with second-rate people. It'll however be a slow process, and I think we will have to wait to see it happen. I believe censorship will become the norm in 100 years, maybe less, as well as state control. It'll be like George Orwell's 1984.

Having said this, I have nothing against China, Chinese culture, or the Chinese people. On the contrary, I love much of the culture, and even respect the parts that go against western values. I do, however, worry a little about what the future holds.

What do you think?

I'm not even kidding btw, this is what I think will happen. For real. It's also not something we need to wait for, not for too long anyway.

[1] https://nationalinterest.org/feature/china-now-world%E2%80%99s-largest-economy-we-shouldn%E2%80%99t-be-shocked-170719

last edit on 2/24/2023 4:06:07 PM
Posts: 791
0 votes RE: What will happen with China?

Last time China surpassed the US, it was under President Obama. It was brief, Trump took it back.

In 2020 China was already opening up from the pandemic, while the west were considering vaccine mandates.

China got a headstart, plus Biden destroyed millions of jobs, to appease some of his corporate donors, so jobs went back to China.

If the typical US citizen remains ignorant toward reality, then the US deserves to fall down.

last edit on 2/25/2023 6:07:59 AM
Posts: 452
0 votes RE: What will happen with China?

Last time China surpassed the US, it was under President Obama. It was brief, Trump took it back.

In 2020 China was already opening up from the pandemic, while the west were considering vaccine mandates.

China got a headstart, plus Biden destroyed millions of jobs, to appease some of his corporate donors, so jobs went back to China.

If the typical US citizen remains ignorant toward reality, then the US deserves to fall down.

 lol the way you write is so egotistic with all the dramatic commas.

last edit on 2/25/2023 6:36:51 PM
Posts: 1331
0 votes RE: What will happen with China?

Not to be offended, but I made a topic similar to this with predictions about future china like 4 days ago and now you are posting this. What are you up to? I see you.

Posts: 968
0 votes RE: What will happen with China?

Last time China surpassed the US, it was under President Obama. It was brief, Trump took it back.

In 2020 China was already opening up from the pandemic, while the west were considering vaccine mandates.

China got a headstart, plus Biden destroyed millions of jobs, to appease some of his corporate donors, so jobs went back to China.

If the typical US citizen remains ignorant toward reality, then the US deserves to fall down.

It depends on what you mean by surpass, but yes, China did handle the pandemic better than the US (except they fucked up the ending with their zero-covid policy). In terms of the economy, China has already surpassed the US 8 years ago. During those 8 years, China's economy has allowed them to catch up or surpass USA in almost every area. It has a lot more to do with money and economy than it does the president, imho, even if the president can fuck things up to make it faster. There's no way for a smaller economy to keep up with a bigger one that is even growing at a faster pace. It's already over.

 

Not to be offended, but I made a topic similar to this with predictions about future china like 4 days ago and now you are posting this. What are you up to? I see you.

This topic was made to spite you, Friedrich.

last edit on 2/26/2023 1:33:20 AM
Posts: 427
0 votes RE: What will happen with China?

Last time China surpassed the US, it was under President Obama. It was brief, Trump took it back.

In 2020 China was already opening up from the pandemic, while the west were considering vaccine mandates.

China got a headstart, plus Biden destroyed millions of jobs, to appease some of his corporate donors, so jobs went back to China.

If the typical US citizen remains ignorant toward reality, then the US deserves to fall down.

It depends on what you mean by surpass, but yes, China did handle the pandemic better than the US (except they fucked up the ending with their zero-covid policy). In terms of the economy, China has already surpassed the US 8 years ago. During those 8 years, China's economy has allowed them to catch up or surpass USA in almost every area. It has a lot more to do with money and economy than it does the president, imho, even if the president can fuck things up to make it faster. There's no way for a smaller economy to keep up with a bigger one that is even growing at a faster pace. It's already over.

Yes under Obama 8 years ago is when China surpassed the US for #1 economy. That lasted about a year or 2, and now it happened again at the end of Trump's first term.

India is more populated than China now, but far from a top economy.

Yes world leaders make and break economies. What matters most are jobs, which the US has fallen back on under Biden's incompetence. 

Being the biggest economy is the road to becoming the world's leading superpower. While the US are in many cases the bad guys, we're probably happier to have the US police the globe over China.

 

Posts: 1100
0 votes RE: What will happen with China?

I'm not so sure we should be too worried about China's economy at this point. China is taking on record debt after shutting down their country for such an extreme amount of time.  Their industry is suffering substantially and their people are fed up to the point of rioting. Not to mention their is a bluegrass movement in the US to bring jobs and manufacturing back to being domestic. If that were to be successful then China would be screwed.  It's not a good sign when their strongest ally right now is Russia, which is basically an oil refinery with a large (but weak) military. 

If you think our economic recession and over 10% inflation is bad, then imagine how long it'll take for China to recover from a longer economic bottleneck/shutdown.  Keep in mind that the US economy has a significant effect on eurasian economies, so when we have a recession they often do as well.  Our recession will most likely compound China's.  We will be forced to pull away from chinese manufacturing when their economic bottleneck bursts.

optional video with supporting information:

Posts: 968
0 votes RE: What will happen with China?
Hawk said: 

Yes under Obama 8 years ago is when China surpassed the US for #1 economy. That lasted about a year or 2, and now it happened again at the end of Trump's first term.

The gap between China and US has, to my knowledge, grown consistently over the 8 years. I'm sure there were a few blunders by Obama and Biden, but ultimately I think the increase in the gap is being driven by things outside of the US presidents' control. I think what Trump did with the trade war was a step in the right direction, but it did almost nothing to stop the inevitable.

 

India is more populated than China now, but far from a top economy.

Yep.

 

Being the biggest economy is the road to becoming the world's leading superpower. While the US are in many cases the bad guys, we're probably happier to have the US police the globe over China.

That's what I'm worried about. No matter how many bad things I have to say about USA, I'm happier with them in a leading role over China.

Posts: 968
1 votes RE: What will happen with China?
FOTS said: 

I'm not so sure we should be too worried about China's economy at this point. China is taking on record debt after shutting down their country for such an extreme amount of time.  Their industry is suffering substantially and their people are fed up to the point of rioting. Not to mention their is a bluegrass movement in the US to bring jobs and manufacturing back to being domestic. If that were to be successful then China would be screwed.  It's not a good sign when their strongest ally right now is Russia, which is basically an oil refinery with a large (but weak) military. 

If you think our economic recession and over 10% inflation is bad, then imagine how long it'll take for China to recover from a longer economic bottleneck/shutdown.  Keep in mind that the US economy has a significant effect on eurasian economies, so when we have a recession they often do as well.  Our recession will most likely compound China's.  We will be forced to pull away from chinese manufacturing when their economic bottleneck bursts.

optional video with supporting information

These sort of arguments have been circulating, and changing, over the two decades that China's economy has been growing at an averaged 8%, perfectly stable level every year. Over the last decades, the western news has been saying, among other things, that China's economy is a hoax, the numbers are manipulated, it will slow down because the source of the growth is not stable, it will bottleneck because they can't innovate, they will be unable to keep up with technology, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. As every one of these predictions turned out to be incorrect, the rationale changed, with the exception that China's fall was always one year from the present date. Everyone's been touting how China's economic collapse has been "just around the corner" for the last 2 decades, yet they surpassed USA 8 years ago and have always grown at a faster AND stabler rate ever since then, and before then.

But perhaps your argument is that China's fall is NOW, FINALLY, just around the corner, for real this time. Perhaps you think it was much more heavily damaged by the coronavirus than any other country. If so, you'd be surprised to learn that China was the only major economy to report growth during the height of the 2020 pandemic. Not a single other major economy reported growth. There's just no way to compete with a stronger economy, no matter what you do. All of what you mention is just noise in the grander scheme of things, mainly about postponing the inevitable by 1-3 years at most. None of this bluegrass BS is going to do anything, it will probably cost US money, but even if it ends up being beneficial, it still won't matter in the grander scheme of things. At this point, nothing short of a miracle can save US. You're like those Finnish people who think Finland's economy is going to revitalize because they switched from plastic coffee cups to paper cups to save up in garbage costs.

BTW, Chinese people are perfectly happy being subjugated to the government's will. They grow up with it, and love it, despite the propaganda stories you hear about how they actually love American freedom more. The only time people were "fed up" was when there was that major lockdown in Shanghai that ended up with people dying, and even then the number of people who voiced opinions was a tiny minority, even if it was blown up in the western news.

last edit on 3/3/2023 3:18:57 PM
Posts: 1100
0 votes RE: What will happen with China?
FOTS said: 

I'm not so sure we should be too worried about China's economy at this point. China is taking on record debt after shutting down their country for such an extreme amount of time.  Their industry is suffering substantially and their people are fed up to the point of rioting. Not to mention their is a bluegrass movement in the US to bring jobs and manufacturing back to being domestic. If that were to be successful then China would be screwed.  It's not a good sign when their strongest ally right now is Russia, which is basically an oil refinery with a large (but weak) military. 

If you think our economic recession and over 10% inflation is bad, then imagine how long it'll take for China to recover from a longer economic bottleneck/shutdown.  Keep in mind that the US economy has a significant effect on eurasian economies, so when we have a recession they often do as well.  Our recession will most likely compound China's.  We will be forced to pull away from chinese manufacturing when their economic bottleneck bursts.

optional video with supporting information

These sort of arguments have been circulating, and changing, over the two decades that China's economy has been growing at an averaged 8%, perfectly stable level every year. Over the last decades, the western news has been saying, among other things, that China's economy is a hoax, the numbers are manipulated, it will slow down because the source of the growth is not stable, it will bottleneck because they can't innovate, they will be unable to keep up with technology, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. As every one of these predictions turned out to be incorrect, the rationale changed, with the exception that China's fall was always one year from the present date. Everyone's been touting how China's economic collapse has been "just around the corner" for the last 2 decades, yet they surpassed USA 8 years ago and have always grown at a faster AND stabler rate ever since then, and before then.

But perhaps your argument is that China's fall is NOW, FINALLY, just around the corner, for real this time. Perhaps you think it was much more heavily damaged by the coronavirus than any other country. If so, you'd be surprised to learn that China was the only major economy to report growth during the height of the 2020 pandemic. Not a single other major economy reported growth. There's just no way to compete with a stronger economy, no matter what you do. All of what you mention is just noise in the grander scheme of things, mainly about postponing the inevitable by 1-3 years at most. None of this bluegrass BS is going to do anything, it will probably cost US money, but even if it ends up being beneficial, it still won't matter in the grander scheme of things. At this point, nothing short of a miracle can save US. You're like those Finnish people who think Finland's economy is going to revitalize because they switched from plastic coffee cups to paper cups to save up in garbage costs.

BTW, Chinese people are perfectly happy being subjugated to the government's will. They grow up with it, and love it, despite the propaganda stories you hear about how they actually love American freedom more. The only time people were "fed up" was when there was that major lockdown in Shanghai that ended up with people dying, and even then the number of people who voiced opinions was a tiny minority, even if it was blown up in the western news.

 I would like to clarify that I do not think the Chinese economy will be collapsing.  An economy of that size would take a veritable catastrophe to permanently upend.  I am very opposed to sensationalistic catastrophic predictions.  They hold little to no validity. Similarly to the climate change catastrophizers, they simplify complex, diverse and stochastic systems and make too many assumptions to the point that the models can be completely discounted. 

The position I maintain is that the Chinese economy will see a significant or major recession—not a depression—that will take 5-10 years to fully recover from.  It is quite astonishing that they saw any growth despite their lockdowns.  I wonder if this is due to the government pumping in more money than most countries to inflate the economy, which would detract more greatly from future stability.  However, I have seen no economist break down the situation rationally.  I would like to see someone like Thomas Sowell address those economic statistics, since I value his analyses greatly.  

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