Well that same dictionary you are using tc has a very circular definition for women. Therefore it does not seem able to define what a woman is, as a circular definition is a pseudo definition so I wouldn't bet on it properly defining feminism.
Your argument is that Google is left-biased over the definition of women, and therefor we cannot take it as a source of defining Feminism?
It's first use as the above definition was in 1893, at most if you are going to continue your stance then we will have to agree that it is sometimes Misandry under the label of Feminism over their attempt to cast a wide net.
Well actually I thought you were using a different dictionary, the same as me, but we actually have different browsers soni removed the post
Western fourth wave feminism is a movement. A movement is a community of people all carrying something or multiple things forward. Many of the things being carried forward are in fact harmful to society and sexist against men
So your argument here moreso is that Western Fourth Wave Feminism is not True Feminism?
Feminism: The Fourth Wave, movement within feminism that, although debated by some, began about 2012. Its focus was on sexual harassment, body shaming, and rape culture, among other issues. A key component was the use of social media to highlight and address these concerns. The new wave arose amid a number of high-profile incidents.
In December 2012 a young woman was brutally gang-raped in India and subsequently died, sparking local protests and international outrage. That was followed two years later by the Gamergate campaign, a manifestation of the so-called “men’s rights movement” that had its origins on the Web site 4chan. GamerGate ostensibly sought to promote ethics in video-game journalism, but it was in reality a harassment campaign against “social justice warriors.” The latter were often women who objected to female stereotypes in video games and were subsequently inundated with death threats and rape threats.
Against this background came Donald Trump’s defeat of Hillary Clinton in the U.S. presidential election in 2016. Trump had made a number of inflammatory remarks about women, and the day after the election a grandmother went on Facebook to propose a march on Washington, D.C. The suggestion quickly gained traction and became a call for social change, especially in regard to gender equality. Known as the Women’s March, it grew to include demonstrations across the United States and around the world. The protests took place on January 21, 2017, the day after Trump’s inauguration, and as many as 4.6 million people attended the various events in the United States, making the Women’s March perhaps the largest single-day demonstration in that country’s history.
Arguably even more significant was the Me Too movement, which was launched in 2006 in the United States to assist survivors of sexual violence, especially females of colour. The campaign gained widespread attention beginning in 2017, after it was revealed that film mogul Harvey Weinstein had for years sexually harassed and assaulted women in the industry with impunity. Victims of sexual harassment or assault around the world—and of all ethnicities—began sharing their experiences on social media, using the hashtag #MeToo. The movement grew over the coming months to bring condemnation to dozens of powerful men in politics, business, entertainment, and the news media.
This is a sub-genre of Feminism, one can disagree with one version of it while still otherwise identifying as a Feminist overall.
Feminism: The Fourth Wave, movement within feminism that, although debated by some, began about 2012. Its focus was on sexual harassment, body shaming, and rape culture, among other issues. A key component was the use of social media to highlight and address these concerns. The new wave arose amid a number of high-profile incidents.
In December 2012 a young woman was brutally gang-raped in India and subsequently died, sparking local protests and international outrage. That was followed two years later by the Gamergate campaign, a manifestation of the so-called “men’s rights movement” that had its origins on the Web site 4chan. GamerGate ostensibly sought to promote ethics in video-game journalism, but it was in reality a harassment campaign against “social justice warriors.” The latter were often women who objected to female stereotypes in video games and were subsequently inundated with death threats and rape threats.
Against this background came Donald Trump’s defeat of Hillary Clinton in the U.S. presidential election in 2016. Trump had made a number of inflammatory remarks about women, and the day after the election a grandmother went on Facebook to propose a march on Washington, D.C. The suggestion quickly gained traction and became a call for social change, especially in regard to gender equality. Known as the Women’s March, it grew to include demonstrations across the United States and around the world. The protests took place on January 21, 2017, the day after Trump’s inauguration, and as many as 4.6 million people attended the various events in the United States, making the Women’s March perhaps the largest single-day demonstration in that country’s history.
Arguably even more significant was the Me Too movement, which was launched in 2006 in the United States to assist survivors of sexual violence, especially females of colour. The campaign gained widespread attention beginning in 2017, after it was revealed that film mogul Harvey Weinstein had for years sexually harassed and assaulted women in the industry with impunity. Victims of sexual harassment or assault around the world—and of all ethnicities—began sharing their experiences on social media, using the hashtag #MeToo. The movement grew over the coming months to bring condemnation to dozens of powerful men in politics, business, entertainment, and the news media.This is a sub-genre of Feminism, one can disagree with one version of it while still otherwise identifying as a Feminist overall.
Things and meanings change. For example the republicans used to be liberal and for equality between races (they are back to wanting races to be equal again in general)
And the democrats used to work with the KKK and be racist. Then they were no longer racist and now in my opinion they are racist again but in in a different way. Although I don't know if they ever stopped having ties with the KKK but that's another story
Movements change and no matter a dictionary definition (I don't take dictionaries seriously because they are meant to reflect language not create it and language is ever evolving, for example you said this was the definition in 1893 Everyone from that time is literally dead. The dictionary has not evolved this definition at all) i simply do not identify with the feminist movement, but actually the men's rights movement and have even given quite a bit of money to it.for.charity. and the def for men's rights movement is the same, equality for the sexes. And yet you will see most feminists will not say they are that- because both movements have different complex goals which cannot be simplified to a dictionary definition. And between these complex ideologies and differences I absolutely agree with the men's rights one and not the feminism movement in general
Feminism: The Fourth Wave, movement within feminism that, although debated by some, began about 2012. Its focus was on sexual harassment, body shaming, and rape culture, among other issues. A key component was the use of social media to highlight and address these concerns. The new wave arose amid a number of high-profile incidents.
In December 2012 a young woman was brutally gang-raped in India and subsequently died, sparking local protests and international outrage. That was followed two years later by the Gamergate campaign, a manifestation of the so-called “men’s rights movement” that had its origins on the Web site 4chan. GamerGate ostensibly sought to promote ethics in video-game journalism, but it was in reality a harassment campaign against “social justice warriors.” The latter were often women who objected to female stereotypes in video games and were subsequently inundated with death threats and rape threats.
Against this background came Donald Trump’s defeat of Hillary Clinton in the U.S. presidential election in 2016. Trump had made a number of inflammatory remarks about women, and the day after the election a grandmother went on Facebook to propose a march on Washington, D.C. The suggestion quickly gained traction and became a call for social change, especially in regard to gender equality. Known as the Women’s March, it grew to include demonstrations across the United States and around the world. The protests took place on January 21, 2017, the day after Trump’s inauguration, and as many as 4.6 million people attended the various events in the United States, making the Women’s March perhaps the largest single-day demonstration in that country’s history.
Arguably even more significant was the Me Too movement, which was launched in 2006 in the United States to assist survivors of sexual violence, especially females of colour. The campaign gained widespread attention beginning in 2017, after it was revealed that film mogul Harvey Weinstein had for years sexually harassed and assaulted women in the industry with impunity. Victims of sexual harassment or assault around the world—and of all ethnicities—began sharing their experiences on social media, using the hashtag #MeToo. The movement grew over the coming months to bring condemnation to dozens of powerful men in politics, business, entertainment, and the news media.This is a sub-genre of Feminism, one can disagree with one version of it while still otherwise identifying as a Feminist overall.
Things and meanings change. For example the republicans used to be liberal and for equality between races (they are back to wanting races to be equal again in general)
The meaning however in this case did not change, if you express feminism in another country it will reflect their trends, history, and immediate context instead.
Feminism is a larger word than what you are attempting to culturally pigeon-hole it down to. From the sounds of it you are a Feminist, but you seem to think that Men are the ones who need help to get things equal.
Feminism: The Fourth Wave, movement within feminism that, although debated by some, began about 2012. Its focus was on sexual harassment, body shaming, and rape culture, among other issues. A key component was the use of social media to highlight and address these concerns. The new wave arose amid a number of high-profile incidents.
In December 2012 a young woman was brutally gang-raped in India and subsequently died, sparking local protests and international outrage. That was followed two years later by the Gamergate campaign, a manifestation of the so-called “men’s rights movement” that had its origins on the Web site 4chan. GamerGate ostensibly sought to promote ethics in video-game journalism, but it was in reality a harassment campaign against “social justice warriors.” The latter were often women who objected to female stereotypes in video games and were subsequently inundated with death threats and rape threats.
Against this background came Donald Trump’s defeat of Hillary Clinton in the U.S. presidential election in 2016. Trump had made a number of inflammatory remarks about women, and the day after the election a grandmother went on Facebook to propose a march on Washington, D.C. The suggestion quickly gained traction and became a call for social change, especially in regard to gender equality. Known as the Women’s March, it grew to include demonstrations across the United States and around the world. The protests took place on January 21, 2017, the day after Trump’s inauguration, and as many as 4.6 million people attended the various events in the United States, making the Women’s March perhaps the largest single-day demonstration in that country’s history.
Arguably even more significant was the Me Too movement, which was launched in 2006 in the United States to assist survivors of sexual violence, especially females of colour. The campaign gained widespread attention beginning in 2017, after it was revealed that film mogul Harvey Weinstein had for years sexually harassed and assaulted women in the industry with impunity. Victims of sexual harassment or assault around the world—and of all ethnicities—began sharing their experiences on social media, using the hashtag #MeToo. The movement grew over the coming months to bring condemnation to dozens of powerful men in politics, business, entertainment, and the news media.This is a sub-genre of Feminism, one can disagree with one version of it while still otherwise identifying as a Feminist overall.
Things and meanings change. For example the republicans used to be liberal and for equality between races (they are back to wanting races to be equal again in general)
The meaning however in this case did not change, if you express feminism in another country it will reflect their trends, history, and immediate context instead.
Feminism is a larger word than what you are attempting to culturally pigeon-hole it down to. From the sounds of it you are a Feminist, but you seem to think that Men are the ones who need help to get things equal.
Well I couldn't be as specific in my title because I only have so many words to fit in my thread title, so it is obviously oversimplified to my actual point. However, I have made it clear in this thread I am specifically talking about the fourth wave western movement here. I do not have any opinion about movements in kther countries, because I'm not going to pretend I as a woman in the USA would have any understanding of another sociological movement in a country I have never stepped foot in with a completely different culture, economy, history, religious diversity, government, and so forth and I'm not going to sit on my American posh spoiled ass and pretend I know. Therefore the only form of feminism I have an opinion on is what I specify here in this thread that is western feminism- because it is common in my culture and my part of the world enough for me to have full understanding of it. And I simply do not identify with it, or by extension due to the other previous statement any form of feminism whatsoever.
Basically, if Feminism were called Equalism you'd be all for it.
Actually no. I actually do not agree with equality. But I am for humanism. There is a difference. Sometimes equality is not the same as justice. And true equality is not even possible. If the sexes we're truly treated equal a lot would be unfair to both men and women because different people have different needs and biological sex can be a huge factor in what those needs are.
On another note western modern feminism does not equate to equality for the sexes at all. In many ways feminists want unfair special treatment for themselves that harms men or is unfair to men and even children, and glorifies the woman above the man giving her extra privilege. Even if feminism we're about equality truly I wouldn't agree, but feminism is still unfair in general to many men and children and even many women themselves... But no it isn't even truly reaching for equality and even if it were I still wouldn't agree.
You cannot call feminism equalism that would be inaccurate. There is a reason it says FEMINISM with FEM in it. But how far do you have a movement keep gaining for a specific group of people until that group has been elevated unfairly above other groups and it's time to stop?
Idk why the fuck these people are standing in the middle of a baseball field at the end, but if you don't overthink it I think this is a good analogy
Although in the reality part as far as feminism is concerned let's switch the tall guy and short one lmfao
Turncoat said:This is a sub-genre of Feminism, one can disagree with one version of it while still otherwise identifying as a Feminist overall.
The first part supports your claim here, and I generally agree with the assessment as it does not allow us to obtain a richer understanding of the feminist project as a whole.
However, you will see their is valid objection to the particular definition you earlier brought up.
SEP said:However, some feminist scholars object to identifying feminism with these particular moments of political activism, on the grounds that doing so eclipses the fact that there has been resistance to male domination that should be considered “feminist” throughout history and across cultures: i.e., feminism is not confined to a few (White) women in the West over the past century or so. Moreover, even considering only relatively recent efforts to resist male domination in Europe and the United States, the emphasis on “First” and “Second” Wave feminism ignores the ongoing resistance to male domination between the 1920s and 1960s and the resistance outside mainstream politics, particularly by women of color and working class women (Cott 1987).
One strategy for solving these problems would be to identify feminism in terms of a set of ideas or beliefs rather than participation in any particular political movement. As we saw above, this also has the advantage of allowing us to locate isolated feminists whose work was not understood or appreciated during their time. But how should we go about identifying a core set of feminist beliefs? Some would suggest that we should focus on the political ideas that the term was apparently coined to capture, viz., the commitment to women’s equal rights. This acknowledges that commitment to and advocacy for women’s rights has not been confined to the Women’s Liberation Movement in the West. But this too raises controversy, for it frames feminism within a broadly liberal approach to political and economic life. Although most feminists would probably agree that there is some sense of rights on which achieving equal rights for women is a necessary condition for feminism to succeed, most would also argue that this would not be sufficient. This is because women’s oppression under male domination rarely if ever consists solely in depriving women of political and legal rights, but also extends into the structure of our society and the content of our culture, the workings of languages and how they shape perceptions and permeate our consciousness (e.g., Bartky 1988, Postl 2017).
There is another good section that gives credence to those who feel the way Delora feels.
SEP said:In everyday conversation it is not uncommon to find both men and women prefixing a comment they might make about women with the caveat, “I’m not a feminist, but…”. Of course this qualification might be (and is) used for various purposes, but one persistent usage seems to follow the qualification with some claim that is hard to distinguish from claims that feminists are wont to make. For example, I’m not a feminist but I believe that women should earn equal pay for equal work; or I’m not a feminist but I’m delighted that first-rate women basketball players are finally getting some recognition in the WNBA. If we see the identification “feminist” as implicitly committing one to both a normative stance about how things should be and an interpretation of current conditions, it is easy to imagine someone being in the position of wanting to cancel his or her endorsement of either the normative or the descriptive claim. So, e.g., one might be willing to acknowledge that there are cases where women have been disadvantaged without wanting to buy any broad moral theory that takes a stance on such things (especially where it is unclear what that broad theory is). Or one might be willing to acknowledge in a very general way that equality for women is a good thing, without being committed to interpreting particular everyday situations as unjust (especially if is unclear how far these interpretations would have to extend). Feminists, however, at least according to popular discourse, are ready to both adopt a broad account of what justice for women would require and interpret everyday situations as unjust by the standards of that account. Those who explicitly cancel their commitment to feminism may then be happy to endorse some part of the view but are unwilling to endorse what they find to be a problematic package.
The upshot here is that some may agree with particular feminist aims, which in themselves have controversial meanings in the different sects of feminism, they are unwilling to accept the additional moral baggage inherent in the different sects of feminism.
This article only touches on this topic briefly, and leaves a lot to be wanted so I want to draw further attention on it given its importance to this conversation.
Beyond moral baggage there is a lot of philosophical baggage as well given the necessity to make certain assumptions in any philosophy or movement.
For instance original feminist philosophy during its first real consciousness in the west was fundamentally Essentialist, merely debating the nature of that essentialism as it relates to women and men. However, there are good arguments against essentialism many of which being made by femisim itself (current identity based feminism is fundamentally anti-essentialist in its arguments that gender is fundamentally a construct). We can oppose this feminism or support with reason, those who do on the feminist front are often called terfs.
There is gender nominalism,
Iris Young, SEP said:Iris Young argues that unless there is “some sense in which ‘woman’ is the name of a social collective [that feminism represents], there is nothing specific to feminist politics” (1997, 13). In order to make the category women intelligible, she argues that women make up a series: a particular kind of social collective “whose members are unified passively by the objects their actions are oriented around and/or by the objectified results of the material effects of the actions of the other” (Young 1997, 23).
Which has multiple forms,
Stoljar, SEP said:Natalie Stoljar holds that unless the category of women is unified, feminist action on behalf of women cannot be justified (1995, 282). Stoljar too is persuaded by the thought that women qua women do not share anything unitary. This prompts her to argue for resemblance nominalism. This is the view that a certain kind of resemblance relation holds between entities of a particular type (for more on resemblance nominalism, see Armstrong 1989, 39–58).
Again there are endless arguments against and for nominalism, hence we can reasonably carry or not carry this baggage.
There is gender realism,
Hasslanger, SEP said:S is a woman iff [by definition] S is systematically subordinated along some dimension (economic, political, legal, social, etc.), and S is ‘marked’ as a target for this treatment by observed or imagined bodily features presumed to be evidence of a female’s biological role in reproduction.
S is a man iff [by definition] S is systematically privileged along some dimension (economic, political, legal, social, etc.), and S is ‘marked’ as a target for this treatment by observed or imagined bodily features presumed to be evidence of a male’s biological role in reproduction. (2003a, 6–7)
Again endless arguments against realism in general and in its relation to sex/gender, many of them coming from the nomanlists.
Interestingly, we ca object to all the above including feminism in all its forms via skepticism (to name one) which, in general, would deny all of their epistemological foundations.
In short, there is good reason to be a feminist in the sense that it can be a well thought out position, and there are good reasons to not be a feminist in the sense it can be well thought out position. Beyond that, one can even not be a feminist while still supporting feminist goals given one can object to the philosophical assumptions common to most forms of feminism.
