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0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...


I identified more with girls than boys when I was younger, but it didn't really mean as much until I was older. 

Would you say that your situation, whatever it may be, is fundamentally a construction? I've view your opinion as something similar to this given you seem to view gender, sex, etc as morphic but transformative. 


For homosexuality it's a lot easier to argue the idea of them having been born that way, while gender identity's more of a societal filter based around where self-identity ended up peer modeling. 

It depends on how literally you're taking those arguments.  As TC said, it's typically more a sense of entitlement to their feelings, a need to reinforce their validity with consistency in the face of that being one of the primary challenges brought by their opposition, the notion of transtrenders, mental illness, and men in dresses.  Being "born that way" wouldn't even be a point of contention were that not used as an arbitrary scale of value to justify the negative emotional response.

Right but that offshoot is built on an already troubled philosophy. 

These individuals, gay or trans, are taking on a position that isn't really easily defended. i want to clarify that I only mean those who actually clearly believe that they were born X without question and they do exist given they not only make the statement but become very angry when questioned about the validity of that claim, their anger gives me reason to believe they believe what they say. So, even if the belief is derived from a sense of entitlement the belief still stands for many, but that cause does make sense. Just like for the racial supremacist whom also makes this bold claim to justify his/her own sense of entitlement. 

Arguments of mentally ill, transtrenders, etc seem to come from a place of moral objectivism where such X is normal and Y is not therefore Y is in a degenerative category. Such a objectivist view in this context in itself is extremely difficult to uphold. The essentialist response from homosexuals+ and Trans people could be a byproduct of this objectivist view but all they've done is responded a seemingly irrational view with one in kind. This does more harm than good for both parties and I can't view the positions as justified merely because both are poorly made. 

This is arguably similar to racial supremacist logic, but no more so than the essentialist idea of gender itself which pushes against the transgender objective, and in doing so creates it.  I wouldn't particularly say the transgender perspective is essentialist, so much as it must exist in an essentialist culture.  Whereas racial supremacy is an essentialist backlash to a decreasingly essentialist culture.

This idea of essentialist culture is an interesting one. I think it can be argued that the culture as a whole can be viewed as essentialist, and then of course this dominant essentialist thought would imply all the of subpositions. Beyond what is mentioned, argumenrs of race in general take on this form when talking about blackness and whiteness being fundamental and being self-determining: being white is this, being black is this, if you are white you are this, if you are black you are this. All of these are baseless without race not only being substance but a substance that has a causal relationship with essence or vise versa. 

To take it a step further, many of the arguments made by some centrists is culturally and politically Essentialist. You have ideas that X set of beliefs is American and Y set of beliefs is unamerican thereby declaring American as immutable. 

 

 

Posts: 33162
0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...

I identified more with girls than boys when I was younger, but it didn't really mean as much until I was older. 

Would you say that your situation, whatever it may be, is fundamentally a construction? I've view your opinion as something similar to this given you seem to view gender, sex, etc as morphic but transformative. 

I've had the presumption since I was young and otherwise I'm not sure where that comes from. There wasn't really anything in my life that reinforced the idea, nor was there much holding the idea back to the point of crafting a taboo out of it. It just kinda happened, then otherwise never went away. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 19
0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...

What constitutes "the wrong body?" If you were born into it then it is the right body even if the mind is supposedly "the other gender," in which many of those claims are usually unfounded. So even if there was some biological mishap perhaps related to hormones where someone is more feminine minded it still does not prove that they were born in the wrong body/mind. Also stop mutilating confused (and probably autistic) people.

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0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...
Dragoon said: 

What constitutes "the wrong body?" If you were born into it then it is the right body even if the mind is supposedly "the other gender," in which many of those claims are usually unfounded. So even if there was some biological mishap perhaps related to hormones where someone is more feminine minded it still does not prove that they were born in the wrong body/mind. Also stop mutilating confused (and probably autistic) people.

The use of "wrong" is more over an innate feeling. People in general are prone to peer modeling based on who they view as their more immediate peers, who they relate more closely to based on who they otherwise are by virtue of their nature and the lives they've lead. 

Haven't you ever looked at someone of your own gender and had that be the means of critiquing yourself? Haven't you ever wished you were more fit, taller, had a more chiseled jaw, any of that stuff? 

Imagine now if that inner critic couldn't shut up about the other gender. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 19
0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...
Turncoat said:

The use of "wrong" is more over an innate feeling. People in general are prone to peer modeling based on who they view as their more immediate peers, who they relate more closely to based on who they otherwise are by virtue of their nature and the lives they've lead. 

Haven't you ever looked at someone of your own gender and had that be the means of critiquing yourself? Haven't you ever wished you were more fit, taller, had a more chiseled jaw, any of that stuff? 

Imagine now if that inner critic couldn't shut up about the other gender. 

Hmm well I view androgyny as being more the basis as both genders can have appreciable traits that vary even with an observable binary. Trans people lose more of their own identity in their confusion as they are fixated on contrasting a gender with its natural binary. It's sad that they feel the need to force (or even mutilate) their body to meet the cultural respects of the other gender.

last edit on 12/2/2020 1:50:21 AM
Posts: 138
0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...

You mean the difference between saying if i looked like brad pitt i'd get lots of pussy and i fancy brad pitt, must be hard being gay, but if you are gay its probably easy for you. If you are straight you can easily say i'd like to look like him, and i imagine its easy the other way round to. Remember don't think about it to much kids, just do it.

Posts: 32
0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...

There’s a phrasing you often here coming from transgender individuals and the lgbt community as a whole, that is “I was born X and its not a choice” or “I was born this way”, or ‘I’ve always been X I was just born in the wrong body Y”, etc. What I find particularly interesting about this is that it is fundamentally a essentialist view given it is more a matter of identity which puts them in the same grouping of beliefs as racial supremacists whom usually directly appose transgender identity and homosexuality. This is ironic for both sides given both need this essentialism of identity to justify their own views and ground them.

Essentialism as a view is difficult to uphold when not grounded genetically, when it is abstract like in this case one must first show that one can even know the essensia of something and that I no easy task and probably one of the most difficult epistemic conjectures one can make with any validity.

Maybe there is some sort of genetic proof for these ideas, I am ignorant in that area of study for the most part. If so let me know, but if not then there does seem to be a fundamental issue in the ideas of homosexuals and trans who take up this particular approach to identity. I would think a much more valid approach is the subjective constructionist arguement. 

 I completely agree, and this is something I have always found difficult to understand about binary transgenderism (by which I mean people who state unequivocally that they are a "Woman" in a "Man's" body).

It seems that to accept that as a natural state, one must also accept that there is such thing as a "female" and "male" consciousness, which I find extremely debatable.

In a previous thread you framed this sort of argument under set theory, which I thought was quite clever, given that arguments for this sort of binary transgenderism usually rely on axiomatic sets of "men" and "women" (as opposed to biological principals such as female and male).

One thing I find fascinating about this subject is how transgendered people have existed across cultures since almost the beginning of recorded history, which obviously lends an enormous amount of validity to this as a genuine human experience. I suppose it may be that my formulation of my own sex and gender is far less intrusively rigid than someone elses, and that we're debating a subjective reality that doesn't conform to any universal philosophy.

Posts: 738
0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...
Theo said: 

There’s a phrasing you often here coming from transgender individuals and the lgbt community as a whole, that is “I was born X and its not a choice” or “I was born this way”, or ‘I’ve always been X I was just born in the wrong body Y”, etc. What I find particularly interesting about this is that it is fundamentally a essentialist view given it is more a matter of identity which puts them in the same grouping of beliefs as racial supremacists whom usually directly appose transgender identity and homosexuality. This is ironic for both sides given both need this essentialism of identity to justify their own views and ground them.

Essentialism as a view is difficult to uphold when not grounded genetically, when it is abstract like in this case one must first show that one can even know the essensia of something and that I no easy task and probably one of the most difficult epistemic conjectures one can make with any validity.

Maybe there is some sort of genetic proof for these ideas, I am ignorant in that area of study for the most part. If so let me know, but if not then there does seem to be a fundamental issue in the ideas of homosexuals and trans who take up this particular approach to identity. I would think a much more valid approach is the subjective constructionist arguement. 

 I completely agree, and this is something I have always found difficult to understand about binary transgenderism (by which I mean people who state unequivocally that they are a "Woman" in a "Man's" body).

It seems that to accept that as a natural state, one must also accept that there is such thing as a "female" and "male" consciousness, which I find extremely debatable.

In a previous thread you framed this sort of argument under set theory, which I thought was quite clever, given that arguments for this sort of binary transgenderism usually rely on axiomatic sets of "men" and "women" (as opposed to biological principals such as female and male).

One thing I find fascinating about this subject is how transgendered people have existed across cultures since almost the beginning of recorded history, which obviously lends an enormous amount of validity to this as a genuine human experience. I suppose it may be that my formulation of my own sex and gender is far less intrusively rigid than someone elses, and that we're debating a subjective reality that doesn't conform to any universal philosophy.

 child rape is more of a "genuine human expeirecen" than transgeder you fucking dumb nigger

Posts: 32
0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...
TPG said: 
Theo said: 

There’s a phrasing you often here coming from transgender individuals and the lgbt community as a whole, that is “I was born X and its not a choice” or “I was born this way”, or ‘I’ve always been X I was just born in the wrong body Y”, etc. What I find particularly interesting about this is that it is fundamentally a essentialist view given it is more a matter of identity which puts them in the same grouping of beliefs as racial supremacists whom usually directly appose transgender identity and homosexuality. This is ironic for both sides given both need this essentialism of identity to justify their own views and ground them.

Essentialism as a view is difficult to uphold when not grounded genetically, when it is abstract like in this case one must first show that one can even know the essensia of something and that I no easy task and probably one of the most difficult epistemic conjectures one can make with any validity.

Maybe there is some sort of genetic proof for these ideas, I am ignorant in that area of study for the most part. If so let me know, but if not then there does seem to be a fundamental issue in the ideas of homosexuals and trans who take up this particular approach to identity. I would think a much more valid approach is the subjective constructionist arguement. 

 I completely agree, and this is something I have always found difficult to understand about binary transgenderism (by which I mean people who state unequivocally that they are a "Woman" in a "Man's" body).

It seems that to accept that as a natural state, one must also accept that there is such thing as a "female" and "male" consciousness, which I find extremely debatable.

In a previous thread you framed this sort of argument under set theory, which I thought was quite clever, given that arguments for this sort of binary transgenderism usually rely on axiomatic sets of "men" and "women" (as opposed to biological principals such as female and male).

One thing I find fascinating about this subject is how transgendered people have existed across cultures since almost the beginning of recorded history, which obviously lends an enormous amount of validity to this as a genuine human experience. I suppose it may be that my formulation of my own sex and gender is far less intrusively rigid than someone elses, and that we're debating a subjective reality that doesn't conform to any universal philosophy.

 child rape is more of a "genuine human expeirecen" than transgeder you fucking dumb nigger

 Child rape is an action, but pedophilia would meet the criteria.

Posts: 1669
0 votes RE: Transgenderism and the ...
Theo said: 

There’s a phrasing you often here coming from transgender individuals and the lgbt community as a whole, that is “I was born X and its not a choice” or “I was born this way”, or ‘I’ve always been X I was just born in the wrong body Y”, etc. What I find particularly interesting about this is that it is fundamentally a essentialist view given it is more a matter of identity which puts them in the same grouping of beliefs as racial supremacists whom usually directly appose transgender identity and homosexuality. This is ironic for both sides given both need this essentialism of identity to justify their own views and ground them.

Essentialism as a view is difficult to uphold when not grounded genetically, when it is abstract like in this case one must first show that one can even know the essensia of something and that I no easy task and probably one of the most difficult epistemic conjectures one can make with any validity.

Maybe there is some sort of genetic proof for these ideas, I am ignorant in that area of study for the most part. If so let me know, but if not then there does seem to be a fundamental issue in the ideas of homosexuals and trans who take up this particular approach to identity. I would think a much more valid approach is the subjective constructionist arguement. 

 I completely agree, and this is something I have always found difficult to understand about binary transgenderism (by which I mean people who state unequivocally that they are a "Woman" in a "Man's" body).

It seems that to accept that as a natural state, one must also accept that there is such thing as a "female" and "male" consciousness, which I find extremely debatable.

In a previous thread you framed this sort of argument under set theory, which I thought was quite clever, given that arguments for this sort of binary transgenderism usually rely on axiomatic sets of "men" and "women" (as opposed to biological principals such as female and male).

One thing I find fascinating about this subject is how transgendered people have existed across cultures since almost the beginning of recorded history, which obviously lends an enormous amount of validity to this as a genuine human experience. I suppose it may be that my formulation of my own sex and gender is far less intrusively rigid than someone elses, and that we're debating a subjective reality that doesn't conform to any universal philosophy.

 Are you trans?

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