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0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

If the first point is neglected and plays a role, then doesn't that mean that your conclusion is unwarranted because you assume random changes to DNA..? I have no idea what Axes model is or how that relates to the probability you used to determine the probability of proteins evolving.

Who knows how complicated the interplay becomes when you add natural selection and other evolutionary forces into play. It's no longer a simple random number problem. One factor can feedback back into the other... Over aeons...

Anyway..

His is model is the research paper I cited.

2. https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-mutation-and-vs-recombination/

Why can't recombination play a role, when it seemingly plays a role in almost all standard evolutionary processes? If it can result in a novel set of genetic information, then why is it not important?

And yes, it plays a role in population dynamics. How did you rule that out? I understand that you're talking about a novel property arising, but I can imagine that happening even just through re-shuffling of the genome, forget even the novel traits for a second... because then the macroscopic properties of DNA are different and the microscopic interactions (random mutations) can differ in their feedback to the macroscopic properties.

Recombination accounts for far less genetic variation than mutations - it can be noted that the same can be said for genetic drift. And I mean far far less. 

3. "The possibility that DNA arranges, through selection, in such a way that random mutations tend to cause beneficiel changes. I.e., emergent phenomena. There's even some evidence of this happening in some species that seem to save up mutations for a "rainy day". "

I'm talking about how DNA is arranged and it reacts to microscopic changes.

Let me make some random shit up to demonstrate.. Imagine a strand of DNA is

AAAABCBDAAA

or

ABDAABDBEBA

If you randomly change one of the letters in that chain, imagine the first one has 500 possible macroscopic arrangements such that the change leads to a beneficial trait... The second one has 1. Clearly the first arrangement is then favored.

Imagine that selection tends towards such arrangements that lead to beneficial traits... but you're not taking selection into account. So how did you rule out that possibility, when there's some evidence that this happens in nature?

This is just a simple example... it becomes infinitely more complicated once you take all the other evolutionary forces and agents, and let them feedback on each other at every level.

So how did you rule out selection that creates DNA arrangements which favor beneficial mutations, when there's some evidence that this happens in nature?

Are you speaking of Allele frequency? 

Allele frequency (This is the frequency in which those variations occur) is a secondary phenomena to mutation because the variations don't exist without initial mutation. 

Pertaining to your example, the majority of all of those changes will lead to instability of the coded protein. This is covered under Axes model, recall they take a specific gene and add small random variations to it to get their results. The set H includes all functional mutations, which beneficial mutations would fall under because they are both functional and stable. 

I will look for the frequency of these arrangements that could possible lean towards beneficial functions but they either don't exist or are few because the majority of mutations are neutral meaning they do nothing. 

Furthermore the question would arise how often do such sequences even mutate, just because the sequence itself could lean towards a beneficial mutation doesn't mean it will mutate to read that point. I'm sure of the validity of all this though because of how sensitive protein folds - as i said any change usually leads to neutrality. 

Do you have sources for the selection you speak of if it's not Allele frequency? 

Posts: 331
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

Why do you need sources when you say you're an expert of evolution theory, math, probabilistic theory and computational methods lol. I have no idea what allele frequency is.

"Don't exist"? You're speaking nonsense as far as I understand by the way. I am talking about just simple high-school level maths. That different macroscopic configurations respond to micro-level changes differently is a no-brainer... I just took the simplest example because I thought that someone claiming to be an expert mathematician should at least have a high-school level understanding of what a microcanonical ensemble is.... which by the way is a gross over-simplification of how complicated real evolutionary systems are..

Anyway... You can look up microcanonical ensemble, then canonical ensemble, and then grand canonical ensemble, and you'll understand that evolution isn't just one plus one equals two-- as soon as you realize that even none of these systems in their complexity are sufficient to describe evolution... because evolution involves agents at every level of complexity, on top of these systems.

2 minutes of googling confirms to me that proteins have varying levels of stability and toleration to mutation.. which could probably be predicted even with a microcanonical ensemble. That means some proteins are more stable to mutations, and some proteins are more susceptible to evolution, and apparently often both. If you want a fancy science term look up thermodynamic stability of proteins (and other thermodynamic properties). How did you conclude that proteins can't be more/less stable to mutations or more/less susceptible to evolution?

How did your study take into account the thermodynamic stability of proteins (which you claim does not exist) that can evolve through selection in your analysis? Is that number 1/10^77 probability of stable mutation for more stable proteins, less stable proteins, more evolvable proteins, or less evolvable proteins? Or is it some kind of a straw-man average?

Also, how did the study you cited take into account that there could exist evolutionary pathways that lead from simpler lifeforms to more complex ones, even if one complex lifeform can not mutate into another complex lifeform?

Besides, does DNA recombination being rarer imply that it can't play a role? How can you rule out feedback loops...? You understand partial differential equations right? Can small perturbations to partial differential equations feedback to make major changes over large enough a time interval? How did you rule out that DNA recombination can't create a feedback process similar to that? Evolution theory is no doubt more complicated than your average differential equation and I imagine there are countless of feedback loops at every level.

How did your study's choice for the evolutionary hotspots actually mimic what nature does? How did they choose the genome to randomly mutate and focus on, and why is it equal to what nature does?

Moreover, why is it that there exists an entire branch of protein engineering that successfully generates new proteins by mimicking natural selection (random mutations, selection, DNA re-shuffling similar to recombination, but grossly over-simplified), when your results seemingly suggest it can never lead to any positive outcome? How did you overturn their results?

last edit on 5/16/2020 2:20:56 PM
Posts: 2266
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

Why do you need sources when you say you're an expert of evolution theory, math, probabilistic theory and computational methods lol. I have no idea what allele frequency is.

I never said this. 

You seem insecure, there's no reason to be. 

"Don't exist"? You're speaking nonsense as far as I understand by the way. I am talking about just simple high-school level maths. That different macroscopic configurations respond to micro-level changes differently is a no-brainer... I just took the simplest example because I thought that someone claiming to be an expert mathematician should at least have a high-school level understanding of what a microcanonical ensemble is.... which by the way is a gross over-simplification of how complicated real evolutionary systems are..

Anyway... You can look up microcanonical ensemble, then canonical ensemble, and then grand canonical ensemble, and you'll understand that evolution isn't just one plus one equals two-- as soon as you realize that even none of these systems in their complexity are sufficient to describe evolution... because evolution involves agents at every level of complexity, on top of these systems.

2 minutes of googling confirms to me that proteins have varying levels of stability and toleration to mutation.. which could probably be predicted even with a microcanonical ensemble. That means some proteins are more stable to mutations, and some proteins are more susceptible to evolution, and apparently often both. If you want a fancy science term look up thermodynamic stability of proteins (and other thermodynamic properties). How did you conclude that proteins can't be more/less stable to mutations or more/less susceptible to evolution?

I'm glad you're starting to see things my way, but we really shouldn't be so quick to make assumptions. It'd be a shame for us to end up like the evolutionary biologists who preach neodarwnism. 

If you're actually interested in potential statistical mechanical explanations look into Areih Ben Naims work. He has sent me down quite the rabbit hole these last few weeks. 

Unfortunately your example doesn't really illustrate what you were attempting to say, I'd work on a new one.

How did your study take into account the thermodynamic stability of proteins (which you claim does not exist) that can evolve through selection in your analysis? Is that number 1/10^77 probability of stable mutation for more stable proteins, less stable proteins, more evolvable proteins, or less evolvable proteins? Or is it some kind of a straw-man average?

I don't claim it doesn't exist, I was claiming what was portrayed by your example doesn't exist because the effects of slight alterations to a gene sequence are well observed and almost always lead to a neutral protein. 

As for the study, it doesn't have to take the thermodynamical phenomena all that serious, especially in the context of my own argument. 

I've answered last question at least three times. 

Also, how did the study you cited take into account that there could exist evolutionary pathways that lead from simpler lifeforms to more complex ones, even if one complex lifeform can not mutate into another complex lifeform?

That is unnecessary.

Besides, does DNA recombination being rarer imply that it can't play a role?

It plays such a small role that it would not nudge the probability in any significant way when assuming random mutation is the defacto player in trait emergence. 

How can you rule out feedback loops...? You understand partial differential equations right? Can small perturbations to partial differential equations feedback to make major changes over large enough a time interval? How did you rule out that DNA recombination can't create a feedback process similar to that? Evolution theory is no doubt more complicated than your average differential equation and I imagine there are countless of feedback loops at every level.

Once again I am glad you're starting to see it my way.

All I had to do was to get you to really start taking the complexity seriously. 

How did your study's choice for the evolutionary hotspots actually mimic what nature does? How did they choose the genome to randomly mutate and focus on, and why is it equal to what nature does?

I've answered this question. 

Moreover, why is it that there exists an entire branch of protein engineering that successfully generates new proteins by mimicking natural selection (random mutations, selection, DNA re-shuffling similar to recombination, but grossly over-simplified), when your results seemingly suggest it can never lead to any positive outcome? How did you overturn their results?

They don't rely on random mutation as much as they state it plays a role and as such they are not truly recreating an exact representation of evolution as their theory states. 

Be careful though, you're losing sight of my original point. It seems you're looking for a gotcha but your gotcha's seem to be moving you closer and closer to taking up my actual view. 

Posts: 331
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

Of course I'm looking for gotchas, I'm only exposing someone who pretends to have ruled out evolution theory with a strawman paper....

"I will look for the frequency of these arrangements that could possible lean towards beneficial functions but they either don't exist or are few because the majority of mutations are neutral meaning they do nothing. " - Explain to me why this doesn't exclude the possibility of some proteins being less/more evolvable from a statistical perspective.

Can you answer the rest of what I said:

1. Is that number 1/10^77 probability of stable mutation for more stable proteins, less stable proteins, more evolvable proteins, or less evolvable proteins? Or is it some kind of a straw-man average? How did the study you cited take into account that various proteins can be less/more stable, and less/more evolvable?

2. Explain to me how you ruled out different macroscopic configurations respond to micro-level changes differently, and how this can't be guided through selection. Why shouldn't we be so "quick to make assumptions?" I never made any assumption about this, I asked how you ruled it out.

3. How did you rule out feedback loops created through selection and other evolutionary forces? If you didn't, then how did that paper you cited take it into account? Just one post back you were saying that DNA recombination doesn't matter. Now you're saying that's exactly your point, that it matters?

4. How did you rule out evolutionary pathways that lead from simpler lifeforms to more complex ones? Why is it unnecessary?

5. How did your study's choice for the evolutionary hotspots actually mimic what nature does? Is it the same as what nature does?

6. How is directed evolution in protein engineering not disfavored by your (apprently strawman) paper?

How can't these be explained by evolution through natural selection? If your only point is that theory of evolution through natural selection is complicated, then why construct a strawman for it and say you've proven that the strawman is defective? Don't call it evolution theory then, call it Alice's Strawman Theory for Evolution.

And lastly.... Explain to me how you "made me see that evolution theory is complicated" when that's literally the only thing that I've been telling you from the start. I daresay this is a classic example of moving the goalpost. You can send me your nudes now, as promised.

#Lesson number two... Refrain from making unsubstantiated claims and boldly claiming to have ruled out any standard scientific theory without having any domain expertise in it. Anyway.. I will forgive you this one time, because I don't want to discourage you from scientific pursuits.

last edit on 5/16/2020 5:35:18 PM
Posts: 2266
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

Of course I'm looking for gotchas, I'm only exposing someone who pretends to have ruled out evolution theory with a strawman paper....

I don't rule out evolution, though.

How is the paper a strawman? 

"I will look for the frequency of these arrangements that could possible lean towards beneficial functions but they either don't exist or are few because the majority of mutations are neutral meaning they do nothing. " - Explain to me why this doesn't exclude the possibility of some proteins being less/more evolvable from a statistical perspective.

I've already answered this question. 

Can you answer the rest of what I said:

1. Is that number 1/10^77 probability of stable mutation for more stable proteins, less stable proteins, more evolvable proteins, or less evolvable proteins? Or is it some kind of a straw-man average? How did the study you cited take into account that various proteins can be less/more stable, and less/more evolvable?

I've already answered this question. 

2. Explain to me how you ruled out different macroscopic configurations respond to micro-level changes differently, and how this can't be guided through selection. Why shouldn't we be so "quick to make assumptions?" I never made any assumption about this, I asked how you ruled it out.

How did you rule it in? Why should it be taken into account? 

3. How did you rule out feedback loops created through selection and other evolutionary forces? If you didn't, then how did that paper you cited take it into account? Just one post back you were saying that DNA recombination doesn't matter. Now you're saying that's exactly your point, that it matters?

Why should feedback loops be ruled in? How does recombination lead to a feed back loop? Do any biological models include them? 

i stand by my statement that recombination doesn't matter so much in the context of this argument. 

I was speaking of the possibility of feedback loops when I said I'm glad you're seeing it my way. 

4. How did you rule out evolutionary pathways that lead from simpler lifeforms to more complex ones? Why is it unnecessary?

The creation of a new functional protein is how a simpler organism becomes more complex. 

5. How did your study's choice for the evolutionary hotspots actually mimic what nature does? Is it the same as what nature does?

I answered this question. 

6. How is directed evolution in protein engineering not disfavored by your (apprently strawman) paper?

Directed evolution uses techniques that make it more likely that a functional mutation will occur. 

The paper I cited estimates the probability of a functional protein being derived from random mutation. 

How can't these be explained by evolution through natural selection? If your only point is that theory of evolution through natural selection is complicated, then why construct a strawman for it and say you've proven that the strawman is defective? Don't call it evolution theory then, call it Alice's Strawman Theory for Evolution.

Once again, my entire argument is that it's improbable that mutation is random. 

Nothing I am stating has anything to do with natural selection, this is the sixth time I've had to tell you this. 

And lastly.... Explain to me how you "made me see that evolution theory is complicated" when that's literally the only thing that I've been telling you from the start. I daresay this is a classic example of moving the goalpost. You can send me your nudes now, as promised.

You're moving the goal post. You continue to make this about natural selection while I'm not arguing against natural selection. 

#Lesson number two... Refrain from making unsubstantiated claims and boldly claiming to have ruled out any standard scientific theory without having any domain expertise in it. Anyway.. I will forgive you this one time, because I don't want to discourage you from scientific pursuits.

Don't worry you could never discourage me given you've clearly shown you are incapable of formulating any cohesive argument against my claims. 

I really do enjoy watching you try though, it's like watching fish flop around on the shore. 

Posts: 1125
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

this thread makes me horny

I Took The Liberty Of Fertilizing Your Caviar.
Posts: 33590
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

this thread makes me horny

Does it? 

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Posts: 331
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

Lol, don't answer my questions then.

That's not really how science works, by the way. My inability to "disprove" your theory doesn't in any way make it correct, but your inability to prove it or answer simple questions makes your case pretty.... unconvincing. I bear no burden of proof...

It would be a common fallacy to assume I'm the one who bears the burden of proof.. when you're the one who made the claim.. I hear that a lot from creationists, when cornered.

In fact, I would argue that unless you come up with something a bit more compelling, the de facto standard should be evolution through natural selection, since it's widely accepted and supported by most non-crackpot scientists.

The second you moved the goalpost, I was already pretty happy with the outcome. Can you give me your nudes now?

last edit on 5/16/2020 7:35:24 PM
Posts: 2266
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

Lol, don't answer my questions then.

I already answered most of them. 

Were you not reading my responses? 

That's not really how science works, by the way. My inability to "disprove" your theory doesn't in any way make it correct, but your inability to prove it or answer simple questions certainly doesn't help your case.

I don't have a theory, I've merely pointed out major issues in an established one. And, as I've said, I've answered all of these questions. 

I bear no burden of proof... Look up shifting the burden of proof.. I've seen it done by a lot of creationists, when cornered.

I am not a creationist, I believe in evolution. 

In fact, I would argue that unless you come up with something a bit more compelling, the de facto standard should be evolution through natural selection, since it's widely accepted and supported by most non-crackpot scientists.

Most biologists don't believe natural selection is the de facto standard though, they believe that random mutations lead to new traits while natural selection dictates locality of traits. 

I'm pretty happy with the outcome already. Can you give me your nudes now?

 They say ignorance is bliss. 

Posts: 331
0 votes RE: Evolutionary Biology

Lol. Sure, sure... There, there, Alice... I'm sure you proved evolution theory wrong...

Anything to help you sleep at night. I never said you were a creationist, I just said that the type of argumentation errors you're committing are similar to what creationists usually commit.

As I said earlier, the second you moved the goalpost, I was already happy with the outcome here.

Third lesson... Know when you're wrong, and embrace humility. Be grateful that you've learned something new, and not spiteful.

last edit on 5/16/2020 7:44:17 PM
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