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0 votes RE: so fucking dumb

So... I'm guessing middle class? 

Yes, middle and upper class had the lowest rates and the rates were lower still for none ethnic/racial minority trans people. 

This is interesting imo because studies suggest this in general. The highest rate of suicide by demographic are 45+ Native American men who just so happen to also have the highest rate of poverty and are the greatest minority.

Alchohol didn't really help them either...

Obviously you can't change the fact that they are a minority group. In that case one would have to wonder how much the suicide rate would drop if you improved their economic status. 

Couldn't someone try to use an argument like this to say that our military ought to be majority-white and straight, for the sake of military psychological assessment? 

I see what you’re getting at but if anything the military is classically used as a socioeconomic safety net, and its effective for those who can actually function inside such a structure. 

But I think it’s more a matter of gender identity disorder being up until recently considered a mental condition. It would be the case in which that mental condition was seen to make it overly likely you'd be unable to do your duty in a satisfactory manner. Racial minorities aren't viewed as suffering a mental condition outright...not anymore at least. 


There has to be a breaking point somewhere between cultural conditioned ideals and progressive thinking. 

I agree there is, the military just must be very careful with this line of thought because when they get it wrong it has far reaching consequences.  

D) Many other disorders are allowed in the military to varying degrees. 

Most medical conditions are not allowed, both physical and inflammatory.

Practically all mental health conditions are also disqualifying: disorders with psychotic features, ocd, ptsd, bipolar, pyschoses, dissociative, conversion, factitious, depersonalization, hypochondriasis, somatoform disorders, pain disorders, paraphilias disorders, history of drug or alcohol abuse, history of attempted suicide or suicidal behavior.

Some of those disorders shouldn't be disqualifying, and I thought our military was getting hungrier for it's own blood. It'd be so easy to fake many of these. 

Tbf I'm not well versed in disorders, I don't know what many of these are. I just know that a diagnoses or a suspicion during MEPS will disqualify you, though in the latter I'm sure you can file for a more thorough examination or bring paper that shows you've been examined and nothings been found. 


They likely mean extremely debilitating cases of it, ones that go over the line, the bar they've set psychologically. I figure as they get more or less desperate for people that that line can move. 

A lot are automatic disqualification while others have time constraints.

Depressive, Anxiety, and Adjustment disorders that have necessitated impatient or outpatient treatments for longer than 12 months are disqualifying.

Don't they usually have something that almost resembles a psych ward on-site? 

 There are generally behavioral psych centers in med hospitals and even a few facilities specifically designated for treatment across the country but landing yourself in one of these will almost definitely lead to you being discharged from service. 

For treatment periods less than 12 months the individual must be stable for 36 months. Not sure what exactly the metric for ‘stable’ is.

Probably remarkably low. 

I assume it'd be along the lines of has had no treatment or incidents for over 36 months. 


I mean even our disorder figures tend to be under-reported for a variety of reasons. 

People who have seriously broken the law and have lied on their SF 86 can still pretty easily get security clearances because there are no reported incidents of their wrongdoing. 

So if your not actually diagnosed you likely can slip through the cracks easily. 

If the tranny can pass a physical and doesn't have a physical upkeep to worry about, what's the problem? 

I agree that there wouldn’t be a problem if there was no physical or psychological upkeep but practically all studies reveal there is upkeep along with a ton of risky variables.

Everyone has risk variables though, whether it's towards themselves or their team. Some issues are just louder than others, especially when it becomes a part of the public sphere of discussion. 

 Agreed, there's always variables.

In this case its a matter of minimizing some variables and eliminating others. 

Posts: 419
0 votes RE: so fucking dumb
TC said:
[..] plus how psychologically well off do you imagine military people with actual experience are? Why worry about trans psych more than general psych when the military serves to overall be a somewhat disturbing experience already?

The military is mandatory to men in Finland. One of the ways to "skip" the army is to pretend to be mentally unstable. If you have any history or risk factors, they won't let you in, because they'd have to give you a gun. They won't risk it.

 

General rule of thumb: When someone is proclaiming their greatness, 95% of the time it's bullshit.

Jim's in the 5% imho though. I haven't decided if Alice is. SpatialMind I don't know. He's been at it for years, but I haven't seen anything interesting come out of it. He's just become boring and ordinary now, like he was defeated.

last edit on 2/15/2020 11:56:40 PM
Posts: 33590
1 votes RE: so fucking dumb

There has to be a large number of trans people who don't talk about it, so there must be some degree of under reporting. It's fucking expensive to afford trans surgeries, so most trans people in the military if it isn't a draft is significantly more likely to be pre-op. 

People also tend to not take into account Female-To-Male trannies, and instead tend to think of trans-military from the Male-To-Female perspective. Wouldn't testosterone increases and breast reduction feasibly help military women? 

Not necessarily. 

The military isn't just full of physically demanding positions. 

The constraints here aren't about mere physicality. 

Constraints are only present if HRT is a factor. 

As you've stated though, it's not just full of physically demanding positions. If they could be stationed closer to home the HRT factor shouldn't mean as much, and depending on their potential prescriptions they're on they might only need monthly treatments (injections last around 3 to 4 weeks). 

If they were to for whatever reason be without HRT treatments, like if they became a prisoner of war, not only should this be considered an obvious part of the risks of a military career, but what'll really happen to them beyond a gradual osteoporosis development and some mood swings? 

It's sad to say that I think we're not in an age where the word "need" is seen as more than a "want". Even with their rights being defended principally, what they're choosing to do to themselves as a result of their perspective in this case is their choice.

I agree with this generally but the military thinks very much in terms of need and necessity because its ability to be effective in combat situations requires overcoming mass logistical hurtles. If needs are not met front lines and discipline break down. Organization and supply makes up more of the military apparatus than the front line does. 

From a logistical perspective trans people can be considered a liability. not all trans people take hrt but many of them do, supplying any hrt medications would be considered burdensome as it does not contribute to actual strategic goals. Furthermore, new protocols would have to be worked out to deal with such people socially and medically.  

Injections can last from 3 to 4 weeks. 


It's not like adding a wheelchair unit to the military and insisting that they need to march up a hill, plus how psychologically well off do you imagine military people with actual experience are? Why worry about trans psych more than general psych when the military serves to overall be a somewhat disturbing experience already? 

Because general psychs are easier to deal with. 

Trans psych isn't complicated, what's complicated is what Tumblr culture has turned it into. 

If someone is on the front lines for reasons of their own volition, they'll find ways to make it work despite their shortcomings. 

If you are culturally trans, as in you don't have gender dysphoria, then you will be placed in the group who shares your chromosomes and you will meet the grooming standard. The reason for this is because the military does not have time to think about culture as its an organization whose entire purpose is to win conflicts and seize military objectives. Anything that complicates that unnecessarily is a burden and constrains effectiveness. 

Most of it's about avoiding the biological imperative from what I've seen. If people are freaked out by trans people on chemicals, I don't really see how that's getting in the way of military politics beyond the physical aspect. 

Military conditioning in general errs towards psychological damages, and trans military careers are only different for the room for people to make a needless fuss over it. 

If you have gender dysphoria then you are seen as someone with a mental condition that too can cost effectiveness and efficiency. 

This is generally how higher ups in the military think. 

Past a point, is it worth throwing away additional bodies? 

There must be a use for them that otherwise fits within their limitations, like I dunno, artillery or computers or something. 


The closest I can figure beyond society's push for this view is only over their desire to change themselves primarily. Body modification types tend to be uncomfortable with themselves over some criteria, be it perceived strength, gender, self-expression, self-loathing, or otherwise, and this can even extend into tattoo culture. 

Yes, in the study they called this affirmation and found that internal-affirmation (one confirming their own identity) was a much stronger factor in suicide rate than external affirmation (having others confirm). 

How much do you figure these numbers would change if surgery stopped being so wicked expensive? 

That's a good question but I don't know the answer. 

I would say overall rates would likely decrease because self-affirmation is a stronger factor but I don't know how deeply correlated positive self-affirmation is with being passable. 

It's practically everything, but typically it's related to how they see others looking at them. 

"I just want to be seen for who I really am before anything's been said" is at the core of the Trans Dream. 


So much of trans circles is bullshit where they tell each other how sexy they look so that they don't have to feel bad about themselves. Even within Contra's rhetoric is a surprising amount of safe space fears. 

I agree with this. 

Contras 'cancelling' was inevitable as soon as she started diving into actual trans theory, she was never going to be able to provide a safe space for everyone while theorizing about how they tick. 

I was cringing at her rewrites in favor of her more sensitive audience members before it hit that point as is. 

Leftist sensitivity culture as demonstrated through the internet is needlessly alarmist, and they have a little too much pull over current events. 

Men are already the gender that dies sooner based on heightened levels of stress compiled by societal expectations. Pair that with someone who is uncomfortable enough to "change" it and racial struggles and you basically have a three part risk factor. It's basically the pressure cook of "being a man" combined with two different degrees of "learned helplessness". 

I'd say give it 30 years and we'll start to see this area change. Once men don't have as much pressure to "be men", I suspect things'll calm down proportionally. 

Perhaps. 

Woman have had more suicide attempts than men while men have actually had higher rates of success for a long time now, but I recall reading an article that stated the success rate is actually growing for woman. I'm not sure if that's correct but there ya go

Women in general are more allowed to express their feelings, while men are generally more of a feast-or-famine perspective, inevitably exploding far more often from a lack of outlets. 

Men are more pushed to feel like failures in a black and white fashion while women tend to be more layered from how much they're allowed to express combined with a perceived sense of powerlessness. 

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Posts: 511
0 votes RE: so fucking dumb

Should we allow trans women to compete in genetically women's sports? Seems a little unfair. I mean, there are lawsuits happening now. Maybe there are scholarships and money on the line, hmmm. If you have a gf or daughter beat out by some trans female built like a tank, that would suck.

Men are generally larger, stronger, faster on average. Do you agree with this statement? I'm not saying that woman can't be strong and fast, but on average, human sexual dimorphism exists.

Or are we in a new society where we can't talk about these facts? There seems to be a hesitation to actually say that men and women are in fact different genetically and therefore have different physical characteristics and capabilities. Bone density, muscle mass, etc...

BTW I love women. Don't get me wrong here. Just seeing this interesting issue.

Posts: 2266
0 votes RE: so fucking dumb
Sven said: 

Should we allow trans women to compete in genetically women's sports? Seems a little unfair. I mean, there are lawsuits happening now. Maybe there are scholarships and money on the line, hmmm. If you have a gf or daughter beat out by some trans female built like a tank, that would suck.

Men are generally larger, stronger, faster on average. Do you agree with this statement? I'm not saying that woman can't be strong and fast, but on average, human sexual dimorphism exists.

Maybe in some sports its doesn't matter but for those that are physical I say no. 

Or are we in a new society where we can't talk about these facts? There seems to be a hesitation to actually say that men and women are in fact different genetically and therefore have different physical characteristics and capabilities. Bone density, muscle mass, etc...

I think we can talk about it and it is talked about, it just depends where you have your conversations. 

BTW I love women. Don't get me wrong here. Just seeing this interesting issue.

Stop being a faggot 

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