Sociopath Community

Turncoat said: 

AliceInWonderland said: 

blizzydrizzle said: 

How do we feel about trans in the military? Think it was banned during Bush admin?

I think its wise they they are not allowed for medical reasons. 

I wouldn't be allowed in the military given my medical background, essentially I am at risk if I have a autoimmune episode and to reduce risk I would need medications that are costly. Someone who has been diagnosed with Gender dysmorphia is constrained in the same way, they require Hormone therapy and surgeries - as such its best to not let them in because such things would be a unnecessary financial burden and can even inhibit the person diagnosed from performing their duties (high suicide rates, depression, all that jazz). 

Things to consider: 

I agree, these are important variables and should be considered.

A) Not all trannies are on HRT.

You are indeed correct.

It would be important to see the proportion of trans people who undergo such treatment or have the desire to.

I know nearly 50% of gender dysphoria cases involve medical treatment but I'm pretty sure that stat includes cosmetic surgery. 

B) A history in cosmetic surgery doesn't mean they need future surgeries after the fact. 

This is true, but such cosmetic surgeries can affect one’s ability to pass a MEPS examination. In such a situation it would be handled as it is now, case by case.

Another variable would be trans who are already in the military who would need augmentation for psychological reasons. Augmentations are not covered by Tricare unless seen medically necessary, though there have been cases of post-mastectomy reconstructive surgery where psychological reasons have been used to justify the surgery. The fundamental difference I see between such cases is that the post-mastectomy  reconstruction surgery was approved do to a surgery necessitated by physical trauma or cancer which were not pre-conditions when the person joined, while in the case of the trans individual they are entering the military with a psychological precondition which makes the necessity of such procedures far more probable.

C) Much of the "high suicide rates and depression" is likely a byproduct of cultural pressures, and is liable to diminish as the concept becomes more normalized. 

I agree there are pressures but in practically all the relevant statistical studies I’ve read cultural factors such as victimization and affirmation have been weak independent variables – internal affirmation is a stronger factor, but even high rates of affirmation have high rates of suicide. The strongest factors have been minority and economic. The Toomey-Syvertsen-Shramko study reveals that sub-groups of transgender people have higher rates of suicide than others, the highest being F-to-M who do not identify as heterosexual and are of a minority race. Furthermore, the greatest variation in suicidal tendencies in these subgroups are across economic class – the lowest for teenagers being those whose parents are highly educated and live in urban centers. So, the size of the minority group along with socioeconomic class seem to be the greatest predictors for suicide rate and tendencies among these groups.

This is interesting imo because studies suggest this in general. The highest rate of suicide by demographic are 45+ Native American men who just so happen to also have the highest rate of poverty and are the greatest minority.

Obviously you can't change the fact that they are a minority group. In that case one would have to wonder how much the suicide rate would drop if you improved their economic status. 

D) Many other disorders are allowed in the military to varying degrees. 

Most medical conditions are not allowed, both physical and inflammatory.

Practically all mental health conditions are also disqualifying: disorders with psychotic features, ocd, ptsd, bipolar, pyschoses, dissociative, conversion, factitious, depersonalization, hypochondriasis, somatoform disorders, pain disorders, paraphilias disorders, history of drug or alcohol abuse, history of attempted suicide or suicidal behavior.

Depressive, Anxiety, and Adjustment disorders that have necessitated impatient or outpatient treatments for longer than 12 months are disqualifying. For treatment periods less than 12 months the individual must be stable for 36 months. Not sure what exactly the metric for ‘stable’ is.

I don't know where Gender dysphoria falls on this list. Is it a sub-category of any of these? Regardless, given statistics, it seems it would definitely effect ones ability to effectively serve. 

If the tranny can pass a physical and doesn't have a physical upkeep to worry about, what's the problem? 

I agree that there wouldn’t be a problem if there was no physical or psychological upkeep but practically all studies reveal there is upkeep along with a ton of risky variables.

there are still women who can beat even men in every field. they are out there. 

to become a professional athlete takes me than just being born with natural ability, the cost of training, is very high. 

so the people you see competing are just the ones who were fortunate enough to be able to afford the life style. 

what i'm saying is, there are women out there that could compete against men and still win, but- they're not always going to matriculate into the professional athleticism sphere. it takes a lot of money, dedication, support. 

you have to really want it and be the kind of person who doesn't give up, for years straight. 

so the comibination of all of those qualities, is what's rarest. though women who are stronger/taller than men are also rare. 

just check out the prisons. 

Blanc said: 

there are still women who can beat even men in every field. they are out there. 

I hate to be that guy, but as much as there aren't that many differences between men and women, if you picked the paragons of each there would be things one excels at over the other. 

to become a professional athlete takes me than just being born with natural ability, the cost of training, is very high. 

Testosterone helps. 

what i'm saying is, there are women out there that could compete against men and still win, but- they're not always going to matriculate into the professional athleticism sphere. it takes a lot of money, dedication, support. 

Then they likely couldn't beat quote unquote "men in every field" from a lack of practiced familiarity and dedication to the craft. 

you have to really want it and be the kind of person who doesn't give up, for years straight. 

If they can't handle that, then they aren't strong enough for it. 

so the comibination of all of those qualities, is what's rarest. though women who are stronger/taller than men are also rare. 

just check out the prisons. 

Again, testosterone helps. 

AliceInWonderland said: 

Turncoat said: 

 

Things to consider: 

I agree, these are important variables and should be considered.

A) Not all trannies are on HRT.

You are indeed correct.

It would be important to see the proportion of trans people who undergo such treatment or have the desire to.

I know nearly 50% of gender dysphoria cases involve medical treatment but I'm pretty sure that stat includes cosmetic surgery. 

50% is a bit high, imo. Trans ideology is closer to dressing the part than becoming the part (no matter what rhetoric they're using these days), meaning many in the military would likely just have behaviors more symptomatic towards their perceived self-gender and a penchant for cross-dressing. 

There has to be a large number of trans people who don't talk about it, so there must be some degree of under reporting. It's fucking expensive to afford trans surgeries, so most trans people in the military if it isn't a draft is significantly more likely to be pre-op. 

People also tend to not take into account Female-To-Male trannies, and instead tend to think of trans-military from the Male-To-Female perspective. Wouldn't testosterone increases and breast reduction feasibly help military women? 

B) A history in cosmetic surgery doesn't mean they need future surgeries after the fact. 

This is true, but such cosmetic surgeries can affect one’s ability to pass a MEPS examination. In such a situation it would be handled as it is now, case by case.

Another variable would be trans who are already in the military who would need augmentation for psychological reasons.

It's sad to say that I think we're not in an age where the word "need" is seen as more than a "want". Even with their rights being defended principally, what they're choosing to do to themselves as a result of their perspective in this case is their choice.

It's not like adding a wheelchair unit to the military and insisting that they need to march up a hill, plus how psychologically well off do you imagine military people with actual experience are? Why worry about trans psych more than general psych when the military serves to overall be a somewhat disturbing experience already? 

C) Much of the "high suicide rates and depression" is likely a byproduct of cultural pressures, and is liable to diminish as the concept becomes more normalized. 

I agree there are pressures but in practically all the relevant statistical studies I’ve read cultural factors such as victimization and affirmation have been weak independent variables – internal affirmation is a stronger factor, but even high rates of affirmation have high rates of suicide.

How big of a test was this, and how does it compare next to the stats of other psychological disorders? 

The closest I can figure beyond society's push for this view is only over their desire to change themselves primarily. Body modification types tend to be uncomfortable with themselves over some criteria, be it perceived strength, gender, self-expression, self-loathing, or otherwise, and this can even extend into tattoo culture. 

The strongest factors have been minority and economic.

How much do you figure these numbers would change if surgery stopped being so wicked expensive? 

So much of trans circles is bullshit where they tell each other how sexy they look so that they don't have to feel bad about themselves. Even within Contra's rhetoric is a surprising amount of safe space fears. 

The Toomey-Syvertsen-Shramko study reveals that sub-groups of transgender people have higher rates of suicide than others, the highest being F-to-M who do not identify as heterosexual and are of a minority race.

Men are already the gender that dies sooner based on heightened levels of stress compiled by societal expectations. Pair that with someone who is uncomfortable enough to "change" it and racial struggles and you basically have a three part risk factor. It's basically the pressure cook of "being a man" combined with two different degrees of "learned helplessness". 

I'd say give it 30 years and we'll start to see this area change. Once men don't have as much pressure to "be men", I suspect things'll calm down proportionally. 

Furthermore, the greatest variation in suicidal tendencies in these subgroups are across economic class – the lowest for teenagers being those whose parents are highly educated and live in urban centers.

So... I'm guessing middle class? 

This is interesting imo because studies suggest this in general. The highest rate of suicide by demographic are 45+ Native American men who just so happen to also have the highest rate of poverty and are the greatest minority.

Alchohol didn't really help them either...

Obviously you can't change the fact that they are a minority group. In that case one would have to wonder how much the suicide rate would drop if you improved their economic status. 

Couldn't someone try to use an argument like this to say that our military ought to be majority-white and straight, for the sake of military psychological assessment? 

There has to be a breaking point somewhere between cultural conditioned ideals and progressive thinking. 

D) Many other disorders are allowed in the military to varying degrees. 

Most medical conditions are not allowed, both physical and inflammatory.

Practically all mental health conditions are also disqualifying: disorders with psychotic features, ocd, ptsd, bipolar, pyschoses, dissociative, conversion, factitious, depersonalization, hypochondriasis, somatoform disorders, pain disorders, paraphilias disorders, history of drug or alcohol abuse, history of attempted suicide or suicidal behavior.

Some of those disorders shouldn't be disqualifying, and I thought our military was getting hungrier for it's own blood. It'd be so easy to fake many of these. 

They likely mean extremely debilitating cases of it, ones that go over the line, the bar they've set psychologically. I figure as they get more or less desperate for people that that line can move. 

Depressive, Anxiety, and Adjustment disorders that have necessitated impatient or outpatient treatments for longer than 12 months are disqualifying.

Don't they usually have something that almost resembles a psych ward on-site? 

For treatment periods less than 12 months the individual must be stable for 36 months. Not sure what exactly the metric for ‘stable’ is.

Probably remarkably low. 

I mean even our disorder figures tend to be under-reported for a variety of reasons. 

If the tranny can pass a physical and doesn't have a physical upkeep to worry about, what's the problem? 

I agree that there wouldn’t be a problem if there was no physical or psychological upkeep but practically all studies reveal there is upkeep along with a ton of risky variables.

Everyone has risk variables though, whether it's towards themselves or their team. Some issues are just louder than others, especially when it becomes a part of the public sphere of discussion. 

I read these pages and caught a glimpse of how far ahead I am.

Spatial Mind said: 

I read these pages and caught a glimpse of how far ahead I am.

Any excuse to pat yourself on the back, huh? 

Turncoat said: 

Spatial Mind said: 

I read these pages and caught a glimpse of how far ahead I am.

Any excuse to pat yourself on the back, huh? 

 Some of you won't make it. Others have potential.

Spatial Mind said: 

Turncoat said: 

Spatial Mind said: 

I read these pages and caught a glimpse of how far ahead I am.

Any excuse to pat yourself on the back, huh? 

 Some of you won't make it. Others have potential.

What makes you feel like your path is better than anyone else's here? 

General rule of thumb: When someone is proclaiming their greatness, 95% of the time it's bullshit. 

Turncoat said: 

 

 

50% is a bit high, imo. Trans ideology is closer to dressing the part than becoming the part (no matter what rhetoric they're using these days), meaning many in the military would likely just have behaviors more symptomatic towards their perceived self-gender and a penchant for cross-dressing. 

I forget where I saw that stat but I am looking for it. I would assume it's in reference to those actually diagnosed with gender dysphoria given I would've seen it in a medical study. 

There has to be a large number of trans people who don't talk about it, so there must be some degree of under reporting. It's fucking expensive to afford trans surgeries, so most trans people in the military if it isn't a draft is significantly more likely to be pre-op. 

People also tend to not take into account Female-To-Male trannies, and instead tend to think of trans-military from the Male-To-Female perspective. Wouldn't testosterone increases and breast reduction feasibly help military women? 

Not necessarily. 

The military isn't just full of physically demanding positions. 

The constraints here aren't about mere physicality. 

It's sad to say that I think we're not in an age where the word "need" is seen as more than a "want". Even with their rights being defended principally, what they're choosing to do to themselves as a result of their perspective in this case is their choice.

I agree with this generally but the military thinks very much in terms of need and necessity because its ability to be effective in combat situations requires overcoming mass logistical hurtles. If needs are not met front lines and discipline break down. Organization and supply makes up more of the military apparatus than the front line does. 

From a logistical perspective trans people can be considered a liability. not all trans people take hrt but many of them do, supplying any hrt medications would be considered burdensome as it does not contribute to actual strategic goals. Furthermore, new protocols would have to be worked out to deal with such people socially and medically.  

It's not like adding a wheelchair unit to the military and insisting that they need to march up a hill, plus how psychologically well off do you imagine military people with actual experience are? Why worry about trans psych more than general psych when the military serves to overall be a somewhat disturbing experience already? 

Because general psychs are easier to deal with. 

If you are culturally trans, as in you don't have gender dysphoria, then you will be placed in the group who shares your chromosomes and you will meet the grooming standard. The reason for this is because the military does not have time to think about culture as its an organization whose entire purpose is to win conflicts and seize military objectives. Anything that complicates that unnecessarily is a burden and constrains effectiveness. 

If you have gender dysphoria then you are seen as someone with a mental condition that too can cost effectiveness and efficiency. 

This is generally how higher ups in the military think. 

 

How big of a test was this, and how does it compare next to the stats of other psychological disorders? 

I forget the exact value but it was N=120,000+ surveyed over 36 months. This included people of all genders and sexualities, the trans population made up .7% of the sample which is representative of the actual trans population (sub 1%).

The closest I can figure beyond society's push for this view is only over their desire to change themselves primarily. Body modification types tend to be uncomfortable with themselves over some criteria, be it perceived strength, gender, self-expression, self-loathing, or otherwise, and this can even extend into tattoo culture. 

Yes, in the study they called this affirmation and found that internal-affirmation (one confirming their own identity) was a much stronger factor in suicide rate than external affirmation (having others confirm). 

 

 

How much do you figure these numbers would change if surgery stopped being so wicked expensive? 

That's a good question but I don't know the answer. 

I would say overall rates would likely decrease because self-affirmation is a stronger factor but I don't know how deeply correlated positive self-affirmation is with being passable. 

Furthermore I am not well versed in how the independent variables effect one another, I'm only aware of their individual strengths. 

So much of trans circles is bullshit where they tell each other how sexy they look so that they don't have to feel bad about themselves. Even within Contra's rhetoric is a surprising amount of safe space fears. 

I agree with this. 

Contras 'cancelling' was inevitable as soon as she started diving into actual trans theory, she was never going to be able to provide a safe space for everyone while theorizing about how they tick. 

 

Men are already the gender that dies sooner based on heightened levels of stress compiled by societal expectations. Pair that with someone who is uncomfortable enough to "change" it and racial struggles and you basically have a three part risk factor. It's basically the pressure cook of "being a man" combined with two different degrees of "learned helplessness". 

I'd say give it 30 years and we'll start to see this area change. Once men don't have as much pressure to "be men", I suspect things'll calm down proportionally. 

Perhaps. 

Woman have had more suicide attempts than men while men have actually had higher rates of success for a long time now, but I recall reading an article that stated the success rate is actually growing for woman. I'm not sure if that's correct but there ya go