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0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics

I do understand the opposition. A fine example is...

Beat your fucking kids. 

I've been tackled in here for saying that by people who don't understand the difference between discipline and abuse. But I know and understand it well cause I was beat as a child as a form as discipline, and I'm actually grateful for it. Many people in my culture are, and basically every single culture, including your own has employed this method. 

You look at someone who was beaten for no reason, and they grow up resenting their parents. Maybe they were beaten far beyond the requirement. That's abuse.

Even in the heat of the moment a child knows intuitively if a beating is justified. There's a difference between making mistakes, and choosing to do wrong. 

If a parents fails to discipline a bad child, the world will fuck them up when their older with a sense of entitled.

In my culture along with many others, we grow up laughing about it, and it really shows in a person when their parents failed them.   

 

 

Posts: 10
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics
Qualia said: 
 It is often said that laughter is universal, but so is crime. The pagans thought it was common sense to put heads on pikes and burn people in structures
 

 Various other cultures did that too back in the day. It did serve a purpose, and perhaps it was very effective.

Today stuff like that is a bit of an eyesore and not something people wish to see. 

 What purpose did burning people in large wooden structures to appease the nature god really serve? It likely prevented them from learning practical methods of agriculture.

Posts: 10
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics

I do understand the opposition, a fine example is...

Beat your fucking kids. 


I've been tackled in here for saying that by people who don't understand the difference between discipline and abuse. But I know and understand it well cause I was beat as a child as a form as discipline, and I'm actually grateful for it. Many people in my culture are, and basically every single culture, including your own has employed this method.

Even in the heat of the moment a child knows intuitively if a beating is justified. There's a difference between making mistakes, and choosing to do wrong. 

If a parents fails to discipline a bad child, the world will fuck them up when their older with a sense of entitled.

Physical punishment consistently predicts increases in behavioural problems in children over time, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34197808/ increases the risk for child protective service involvement and is associated with a more fragmented familial relationship. These negative associations apply broadly accross different demographics and cultures. There is a correlation between religious participation and corporal punishment of children/abuse. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5758423/ 

In a birth‐cohort study of children through age 5, frequent maternal spanking at age 3 was associated with externalizing behaviour (e.g., aggression) and lower receptive vocabulary at age 5. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24839402/

A recent meta-analysis focusing on low- and middle-income countries (LMICs) found that physical punishment was significantly associated with negative outcomes for 16 of 19 outcomes studied (including mental health, academic outcomes, behavior) and no positive outcomes were identified. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/05/250505121754.htm


Major professional bodies (e.g., the American Academy of Pediatrics) note that while physical punishment may yield short‐term compliance, long‐term it is not effective and is associated with worse outcomes and lower academic performance. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/152/3/e2023063284/193708/Corporal-Punishment-in-Schools

A study across 8 countries found that frequency of corporal punishment was linked with externalizing behaviours, and that neither severity nor moralization of the punishment moderated the risk (i.e., even when parents thought punishment was “fair” or “mild”, the risk remained). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28729751/

 

There are many more studies showing correlations between corporal punishment of children being linked to negative behavioral outcomes across many demographics.

last edit on 11/5/2025 6:38:28 PM
Posts: 10
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics

Virtue ethics often relies on appeal to authority and circular logic.


Were ancient Athenians correct in viewing slave-owning aristocrats as virtuous, or was it systemic injustice?


It is often taught that to be virtuous requires being like a virtuous person. E.g Be like Gandhi. Let's not even get into his racist campaign against blacks, believing they didn't deserve rights or suggesting suicide as a cure for rape victims.

 
A virtuous person is often considered virtuous because they do virtuous things. This is circular reasoning (a common logical fallacy,) assuming an arguments premise/claim assumes the truth of its conclusion. It assumes already what it claims to prove.

E.g. "Virtue is a state of character concerned with choice… as the prudent man (phronimos) would determine it.” -Aristotle

But: Who is the phronimos?

“The one who exhibits virtue in action.”

This is circular reasoning with no external standard which Greek elites used to justify slavery.


There are many problems with virtue ethics.

Posts: 3661
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics
Qualia said: 
Qualia said: 

 Various other cultures did that too back in the day. It did serve a purpose, and perhaps it was very effective.

Today stuff like that is a bit of an eyesore and not something people wish to see. 

 What purpose did burning people in large wooden structures to appease the nature god really serve? It likely prevented them from learning practical methods of agriculture.

 For some it was an execution method for criminals who did terrible things. Hanging corpses or prompting a head on a pole was a war tactic, which was meant to serve as a deterrent. 

I'm not saying it was a good thing, just effective. I for one wouldn't enter a space with gore at the gate.

 

Qualia said: 

I do understand the opposition, a fine example is...

Beat your fucking kids. 


I've been tackled in here for saying that by people who don't understand the difference between discipline and abuse. But I know and understand it well cause I was beat as a child as a form as discipline, and I'm actually grateful for it. Many people in my culture are, and basically every single culture, including your own has employed this method.

Even in the heat of the moment a child knows intuitively if a beating is justified. There's a difference between making mistakes, and choosing to do wrong. 

If a parents fails to discipline a bad child, the world will fuck them up when their older with a sense of entitled.

Physical punishment consistently predicts increases in behavioural problems in children over time, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34197808/ increases the risk for child protective service involvement and is associated with a more fragmented familial relationship. These negative associations apply broadly accross different demographics and cultures. There is a correlation between religious participation and corporal punishment of children/abuse. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5758423/ 

In a birth‐cohort study of children through age 5, frequent maternal spanking at age 3 was associated with externalizing behaviour (e.g., aggression) and lower receptive vocabulary at age 5. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24839402/

A recent meta-analysis focusing on low- and middle-income countries (LMICs) found that physical punishment was significantly associated with negative outcomes for 16 of 19 outcomes studied (including mental health, academic outcomes, behavior) and no positive outcomes were identified. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2025/05/250505121754.htm


Major professional bodies (e.g., the American Academy of Pediatrics) note that while physical punishment may yield short‐term compliance, long‐term it is not effective and is associated with worse outcomes and lower academic performance. https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/152/3/e2023063284/193708/Corporal-Punishment-in-Schools

A study across 8 countries found that frequency of corporal punishment was linked with externalizing behaviours, and that neither severity nor moralization of the punishment moderated the risk (i.e., even when parents thought punishment was “fair” or “mild”, the risk remained). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28729751/

 

There are many more studies showing correlations between corporal punishment of children being linked to negative behavioral outcomes across many demographics.

 Those are people who would argue corporal punishment is child abuse, and when you look at the after effects of child abuse both mental and physical, the person grows fucked up. A lot of mental disorders happen from how they were mentally abused as children. 

The world is a secular place with all kinds of traps for the soul. Grooming children to be queer and Universities insisting men can be women is a thing, but in reality a lot of people who transition regret it. It's also a path to extinction. Regardless of one's belief, this is Satanic in nature.

It's easy to assume the boys would crush the ladies at Football, It's even offensive to say that, by today's University standards. 

 
 

Posts: 3661
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics
Qualia said: 

Virtue ethics often relies on appeal to authority and circular logic.

There's a cause and effect to it that really works. One's life doesn't simply improve if they're putting on a shit show, but with virtuous practices the results grant one success and piece of mind. 

 


Were ancient Athenians correct in viewing slave-owning aristocrats as virtuous, or was it systemic injustice?

Sure. 

In the modern day when people think about slaves, they think about how, some, white people treated the negros when they had slavery in the US.

The Bible is cool with slave owning too.

In ancient times, slavery was a choice for some. It isn't free to keep slaves, they have to be looked after too. They need food and water, need to be bathed. Need clothing, and lodging. If these things weren't met it would bring shame to the slave owner.

Also having slaves doesn't mean treating them like sub humans. Many owners and slaves would love one another like family. 

In short. Slavery is along the lines of: You look after me, and I'll look after you. 

It's still a thing today. We call it a job. The only difference is we can fuck off at any time, while the boss can replace his workers. Either way it'll cost the head money. 

In the modern day, having a slave ain't cheap.

If a rich person took a homeless person off the street, and said you can live with me if you do chores, you'll get a room, clean clothes, some time off, 3 meals a day. That's the same thing as slavery. And it's a sweet freakin deal isn't it ? Just don't say the S word, as it reminds people of how some ( not all ) white people treated negroids. 

 


It is often taught that to be virtuous requires being like a virtuous person. E.g Be like Gandhi. Let's not even get into his racist campaign against blacks, believing they didn't deserve rights or suggesting suicide as a cure for rape victims.

Gandhi said blacks in Africa were were savages. He's partially right. Even today look at how they kill white people in Africa.

Gandhi was just an imperfect human being. Christ is King. 


A virtuous person is often considered virtuous because they do virtuous things. This is circular reasoning (a common logical fallacy,) assuming an arguments premise/claim assumes the truth of its conclusion. It assumes already what it claims to prove.

E.g. "Virtue is a state of character concerned with choice… as the prudent man (phronimos) would determine it.” -Aristotle

But: Who is the phronimos?

“The one who exhibits virtue in action.”

This is circular reasoning with no external standard which Greek elites used to justify slavery.


There are many problems with virtue ethics.

 That's simply an opinion.

As far as slavery goes. It's advised to treat slaves with kindness. Like  Dr. King Schultz in the movie Django. He acquired Django and between them they were partners and friends, Django was a "freemen" and had a great deal of respect for one another.  The world is filled with homelessness. They world would be a better place if people took in good people and looked after them in exchange for their services. And there would have to be some benefit to keeping someone fed, sheltered and clean in all fairness.

It happens and it's good for both parties as long as no one is a dick about it. 

Posts: 10
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics
Qualia said: 

 Various other cultures did that too back in the day. It did serve a purpose, and perhaps it was very effective.

Today stuff like that is a bit of an eyesore and not something people wish to see. 

 What purpose did burning people in large wooden structures to appease the nature god really serve? It likely prevented them from learning practical methods of agriculture.

 For some it was an execution method for criminals who did terrible things. Hanging corpses or prompting a head on a pole was a war tactic, which was meant to serve as a deterrent. 

I'm not saying it was a good thing, just effective. I for one wouldn't enter a space with gore at the gate.
 

 Most of our modern medical practices are based on experiments on wartime prisoners. It's wonderful that we know how long a body can survive without its organs so a nurse has time to grab a cup of coffee I guess this means torture is virtuously ethical from your perspective because it was effective.

Slavery is the old mode of society. Navigating around the Oedipal structures. No one cares about leaders anymore. They all just get deepfaked anyway. Everyonr is a slave in some way, but not really. Your identity is constantly formed by assemblages of technology, economics, objects, environments, institutions. Production isn't instilled by the crack of the whip like it once was, now it's more profitable social architecture for human desire to flow and develop. Desire is not a lack of something, to be stifled and controlled, it's just potential energy. China's social credit system works better than just putting people in jail by default because virtue ethics is for fools. Whoever buys paper towels for his family in the grocery store gets more social credit than the person selling gutter oil in the street because the system is setup that way, utilitarian. Not... this = bad because good book said so. No... it's just simple calculations for what is most beneficial to the system. Which, China's social credit may seem oppressive but it's better than the archaic non-molecular control systems. It's data-adapted network of micro-controls, not top down enforcing so its more reliable. 

Another problem with virtue ethics. 

Regardless of one's belief, this is Satanic in nature.
 

Another problem with virtue ethics. You can just call anything satanic. Django is satanic. What's right or wrong is left up to opinion or manipulative interpretation of the Quran. It's disastrous.

last edit on 11/24/2025 10:29:47 AM
Posts: 3661
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics

A world without values, is a damned one. I think virtue ethics just about covers them all. 

But as someone who thinks virtue ethics is for the foolish, and  I mean no offence when I question, what values do you have without it ?

Certainly even you apply virtue ethics to someone at least to maintain some form of stability.  I believe there is someone you love. 

Posts: 10
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics

A world without values, is a damned one. I think virtue ethics just about covers them all. 

But as someone who thinks virtue ethics is for the foolish, and  I mean no offence when I question, what values do you have without it ?

Certainly even you apply virtue ethics to someone at least to maintain some form of stability.  I believe there is someone you love. 

 

Posts: 3661
0 votes RE: The Problems with Virtue Ethics

You're making a bit of a mess there. It was but a simple question and you give me a nearly 2 hour response.

.

.

.

Grok. Summarize the Moral Landscape by Sam Harris.

 

Grok said:

### Summary of *The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values* (2010) by Sam Harris

Sam Harris's central thesis is radical and provocative: **moral values are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures**, and **science can, in principle, provide answers to moral questions** by telling us what increases or decreases well-being. He challenges the widespread philosophical idea that there is a strict separation between "is" (facts) and "ought" (values)—the famous "is-ought problem" first highlighted by David Hume. Harris argues that once we define morality in terms of well-being, the fact/value distinction collapses: questions about what constitutes human flourishing are ultimately questions about brain states and the experienced states of conscious beings, which are squarely in the domain of science.

#### Core Arguments

1. **The Moral Landscape Metaphor**
Harris envisions possible ways of life as peaks and valleys on a topographic moral landscape. Peaks correspond to the greatest possible well-being for the greatest number of conscious beings; valleys represent unimaginable suffering (e.g., a world like the Taliban’s Afghanistan or a dystopia of constant torture). The goal of morality is to move toward the highest peaks.

 That's obvious.

 

Grok said:
2. **Well-being as the Foundation of Morality**
Harris claims we already implicitly accept well-being as the basis for morality (we condemn murder, rape, and genocide because they cause objective harm). He rejects moral relativism and religious morality, arguing that practices like female genital mutilation or honor killings are objectively wrong because they demonstrably reduce well-being, regardless of cultural acceptance.

 I agree with some of that, Moral relativism in my opinion requires another outlook considering the offender never knew any better, which he probably does which wouldn't make it moral relativism. Religious morality, not sure what he means by that as there are multiple religions with similar belief systems, though none of them support female genital mutilation.

 

Grok said:

3. **Science Can Answer Moral Questions**
Neuroscience, psychology, sociology, economics, and other empirical disciplines can increasingly tell us which social policies, child-rearing practices, laws, and personal behaviors actually promote flourishing or misery. While we don’t yet have all the answers (the landscape is complex and high-dimensional), the fact that answers exist in principle means science has a legitimate role in morality.

4. **Critique of Moral Relativism and Religion**
Harris argues that believing all cultures are equal in moral terms leads to absurd conclusions (e.g., we would have to say the Taliban and a liberal democracy are equally valid if their values differ). He is particularly critical of religious morality, claiming that anchoring morality in ancient scripture often leads to lower peaks (or deeper valleys) on the moral landscape.

 In response to 4. When the Taliban took over, we saw floods of people trying to escape Afghanistan, they simply wouldn't let go of the plane.  Iran is another example. when they killed that woman for not wearing her hijab to code. They killed her and it was heard around the globe as Persians flooded the streets in anger, as was the world. A moral compass is a real thing globally. 

 

Grok said:
5. **Responses to Common Objections**
- **Is-ought problem**: Harris says the moment we grant that conscious experience and well-being matter at all, we’ve crossed from pure facts to values; science can then tell us how to maximize what we already care about.
- **Multiple peaks**: Harris concedes there may be many different ways to achieve high levels of well-being (different valid cultures, lifestyles, etc.), but some states of the world are clearly better than others.
- **We don’t know what well-being is**: Harris treats well-being as an open-ended but ultimately navigable concept, analogous to “health” in medicine—we may debate edge cases, but we know cholera is bad for health and the Taliban is bad for well-being.

 He contradicts himself here. The whole separating facts and values is just that. There's no real separating values from being factual, that's a deluded way of speculating it. 

 

Grok said:

#### Key Takeaway
Harris wants to replace traditional philosophical ethics and religious morality with a **consequentialist, science-based ethics** focused on maximizing the well-being of conscious creatures. He believes that, far from being value-free, science is the best tool we have for determining right and wrong.

The book is controversial: philosophers often criticize it for not fully solving the is-ought problem and for being overly optimistic about neuroscience’s current ability to define and measure well-being. Supporters see it as a bold attempt to ground secular morality in something objective rather than subjective opinion or divine command.

In short: Morality = facts about well-being. Science studies facts. Therefore, science can determine moral values.

 Mhm Yes. Rubbish I say. 

Had an interesting conversation after this. It found that the ancients got it right and provides a more robust structure for morality. It mentioned how every value in virtue ethics isn't waiting for science to validate it, as it's been working the whole time. It's also very dangerous to allow science to dictate what's right and wrong in a political landscape such as ours. Thinking otherwise will make one antiscience while more woke idiots sit on the throne of famous science. I say famous cause it wouldn't be popular, like shitty pronouns and fake gender studies  

last edit on 11/28/2025 2:26:43 AM
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