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There'd also be other people at the controls before you, each equally culpable to murder at the very least as an accomplice if this was somehow some cosmic legal gotcha like White Bear. Like White Bear, we only have what's presented to us to work with, and in that naive honesty I'd think the math makes sense to kill the current total. 

 Yes; but I meant more the dilemma at the beginning, with a single person.  No one before you.

Thrall to the Wire of Self-Excited Circuit.
Posts: 34901
0 votes RE: Double it?

There'd also be other people at the controls before you, each equally culpable to murder at the very least as an accomplice if this was somehow some cosmic legal gotcha like White Bear. Like White Bear, we only have what's presented to us to work with, and in that naive honesty I'd think the math makes sense to kill the current total. 

 Yes; but I meant more the dilemma at the beginning, with a single person.  No one before you.

If we are the first person, the picture shows the room to notice the person with a lever further down the track with two people. The 'doubling' is a known constant to the trolly problem presented here, so you'd be doing nothing other than killing a higher number of people by passing it on to the next one with no idea how many might die over making the same mistake you did. It's a cascading effect with someone else in charge of stopping it after you let it get worse. 

One death is the 'good ending'. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 10/25/2025 3:14:21 PM
Posts: 3615
0 votes RE: Double it?
Jada said: 

Spatial, your idea assumes everyone agrees with you, and if they do, you'll have managed to get the entire humanity tied on a train track.

Such a task is barely even possible in all honesty. 

Here is what will actually happen. After your turn, when you run to the next person about to pull the lever (me, BT, TC, anyone else) to tell them about your masterful idea, they will look at you like you're mad and pull the lever, and then the only thing you will have accomplished is doubling your body count.

From the basic model, there is no interaction with the previous subject/subjects.

 

The worse case scenario is that your idea somehow takes root until someone with sense pulls the lever, in which case, depending on how effective your stupidity was, you'll have managed to exponentially increase your kill count, possibly surpassing the likes of chairman Mao. And then in the exceedingly unlikely worst case scenario that you manage to somehow achieve what you wanted, all 8 billion of us are waiting to be run over by a train, and you'll be awarded humanity's last and greatest Darwin award.

Setting aside Spatial's retarded idea that could result in the extermination of humanity, what I find difficult to evaluate about the problem is whether or not I'd have the nerve to pull the lever. It feels easier to pass the responsibility on. However, given the rapidly increasing body count, it's the right thing to do. So, I'd do it.

 As I mentioned to Nathan in a previous post, the rules are unclear, and if everyone passing means death for all anyway then it would make sense to kill the first person. That was never mentioned.

My model suggests the game ends when there's no more bodies for doubling, which ends at 33 people. If that rule is implemented, then I got it right. It wasn't, nor was the rule of imminent death for all if 33 people pass. The game in this case should end, because it cannot double anymore, and no one decided to make a kill. 

If 33 people passing means the game can no longer continue, then not a single soul died. On an interplanetary scale the world who does this would be more advanced than one who killed even the first person. 

When presented with this, a normal person would pass on it. In real life if you handed someone a pistol and asked them to kill some random person or else 2 others more will die, they'll most likely pass up on it anyway. 

A very small percentage of people have the nerve to kill someone, and an even smaller percentage has the nerve to kill someone without it haunting them for life. 

last edit on 10/25/2025 7:18:43 PM
Posts: 4853
0 votes RE: Double it?

There'd also be other people at the controls before you, each equally culpable to murder at the very least as an accomplice if this was somehow some cosmic legal gotcha like White Bear. Like White Bear, we only have what's presented to us to work with, and in that naive honesty I'd think the math makes sense to kill the current total. 

 Yes; but I meant more the dilemma at the beginning, with a single person.  No one before you.

If we are the first person, the picture shows the room to notice the person with a lever further down the track with two people. The 'doubling' is a known constant to the trolly problem presented here, so you'd be doing nothing other than killing a higher number of people by passing it on to the next one with no idea how many might die over making the same mistake you did. It's a cascading effect with someone else in charge of stopping it after you let it get worse. 

One death is the 'good ending'. 

Actually, while I accept all this, when we're at the tracks for 4 billion vs 8 billion, it couldn't happen, if the population is the cap.  But, even so, that means there was reserve enough for the population such that if they got around that problem (like everyone from the 4 billion track are moved to the new track to fill the space to the amount, with the remainder of the population), there would indeed be an available final choice-maker.  And presumably, he won't be able to pass (again, "next person" might need scrutiny -- we may infer a different person, but the edge case leaves us still wondering).  This brings us to whether being unable to pass is the same as not choosing to pass.  Not choosing to pass isn't necessarily the same as choosing to kill, is it?

(Of course, this is neglecting any rounding errors involved with the very specific and changing number of the population, which probably means 34 doubles, unless it is really strict on it being able to actually double or not.)

Thrall to the Wire of Self-Excited Circuit.
last edit on 10/25/2025 7:35:56 PM
Posts: 3615
0 votes RE: Double it?

32 = 4 billion

33 = 8 billion

34 = 16 billion. This is where some new rule would have to be made by force. As it stands it's more impossible than whatever great number blurs the line of possibilities. 

I think when it comes to stuff like this, the Devil himself wouldn't be satisfied of victory if there was no chance of winning or losing. 

Posts: 657
0 votes RE: Double it?

I refuse and untie them.

Posts: 3615
0 votes RE: Double it?

I refuse and untie them.

 You're still a broken clock. 

Posts: 657
0 votes RE: Double it?

 You're still a broken clock. 

  Posted Image
We all are.

Posts: 34901
0 votes RE: Double it?

32 = 4 billion

33 = 8 billion

34 = 16 billion. This is where some new rule would have to be made by force. As it stands it's more impossible than whatever great number blurs the line of possibilities. 

I think when it comes to stuff like this, the Devil himself wouldn't be satisfied of victory if there was no chance of winning or losing. 

There's worse than the devil. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 3615
0 votes RE: Double it?

32 = 4 billion

33 = 8 billion

34 = 16 billion. This is where some new rule would have to be made by force. As it stands it's more impossible than whatever great number blurs the line of possibilities. 

I think when it comes to stuff like this, the Devil himself wouldn't be satisfied of victory if there was no chance of winning or losing. 

There's worse than the devil. 

 Okay Nathan, there's worse than the Devil. Thank you. Let's just assume there are hidden rules and absolutely no way to win now.

A+

I'll follow you. Onward to the promised land. 

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