Sociopath Community

Right, I am more focused on the problems of the children growing up this way than the institution of marriage itself. Though I'm not quick to discard the Christian institution of marriage.

For marriage to work in the way The Bible intends it, it's probably also required that the society is more essentially Christian, more than having "In God We Trust" on the currency. I see Christian society as better than a society whose morals and reasoning are shaped by capitalism and interested parties. I also see Chrstianity being a realistic alternative to the current system—if the right messaging and advocacy is in place. At worst, Christian revivalism exerts pressure on the failings of the establishment. Being irreligious myself, I'm not super invested that the alternative is a Christian one. I'm just not seeing a lot of other practical opposition to the establishment.

With marriages, I understand that sometimes people leave them because they are untenable. But I also think a big part of why there are so many divorces now is because there's such a nonchalant attitude about them. Liberalism and feminism effectively emancipated women from being trapped in bad marriages. But with the perhaps unintended result that the criticisms of marriages that enabled escape, were never met with serious pro-marriage advocacy...until things started getting ugly. That's what all this trad shit is about; it's the pendulum starting to swing back.

The occupations with the highest rates of divorce are: gaming manager (52.9%), bartender (52.7%), flight attendant (50.5%). Lowest rates for: actuary (17%), physical scientist (18.9%), medical scientist (19.6%). I think that information hints that there is a personality/mindset element at play. Doesn't it make sense that people who are in these jobs that are heavily social (and lend themselves to hookups) also correlate to divorce—in a culture where divorce isn't really that frowned upon?

And maybe it's not just that marriages become impossible so often, but it could be that people see divorce as an easy way out of a fixable problem. And society—being so pro-divorce and individualistic—encourages people to make that decision and sets the example, when it could be to their own detriment.

Turncoat said:

When divorce is made more common, so too does the potential for second marriages in lieu of a sea of single mothers.

This isn't as good as having both genetic parents, because I think there's stronger attachment & innate understanding there. It's only better than having the single parent.

Turncoat said:

The predisposition towards divorce could, in theory, also be what accounts for those issues. Figure for example parents who are themselves prone to psychiatric disorders, most tend to have genetic roots, and wouldn't parents with mental illness be more prone to extreme actions that could lend to an increase in divorces being filed?

Psychiatric Disorder tends to report a higher tendency towards substance use, they go against the grain of society enough to increase their liklihood of criminal behaviors, especially if they are already into illegal drugs as a Gateway, and then with drugs and distractions on top of potential disorders their grades would go down.

You could be attributing the problems of today with a false cause, as plenty of children turned out disturbed when you could not file for divorce as easily.

It's not some cure-all, the issue at hand sounds deeper than that, and the issue you bring up as being a result of divorce we see crop up often enough from children with parents who didn't split. Figure how many kids are already on pharmaceuticals for example, that's more likely to be a cause for many of the above problems.

I agree that disturbances are probably higher among people who get divorced as a set. But I don't think psychiatric disturbances explain the numbers, as much as they probably account for some fraction.

Turncoat said:

So you'd be fine if we all turned Wiccan for example? That religion's been spreading pretty hard across our lifetimes here in the US, they support heterosexual marriage as a source of empowerment as per their original doctrine, and their 'Threefold Law' karma system as well as other elements in place do a decent job at steering what people do.

Now that's a funny mental image. How is Wicca going to beat out Christianity? I haven't seen it anywhere, maybe it's lurking right beyond my sphere of awareness. Who are these big Wiccans that I don't know about?

Tryptamine said: 

I see Christian society as better than a society whose morals and reasoning are shaped by capitalism and interested parties. I also see Chrstianity being a realistic alternative to the current system—if the right messaging and advocacy is in place.

I see where we are now as a midpoint of transitioning from one phase to another. We don't really know how it'll do, because it is not done doing it yet. 

It's like how the 90s was the awkward midground between the 80s and 2000s. 

At worst, Christian revivalism exerts pressure on the failings of the establishment. Being irreligious myself, I'm not super invested that the alternative is a Christian one. I'm just not seeing a lot of other practical opposition to the establishment.

A combination of Wiccan and Pagan values could take over as it continues to modernize, it's hard to say this early on. 

With a combination of media trends and The Bible itself legitimizing their craft as if it were something to be wary of, it could be where trends go as things move forward. 

With marriages, I understand that sometimes people leave them because they are untenable. But I also think a big part of why there are so many divorces now is because there's such a nonchalant attitude about them.

I don't think people handle divorces like they're just washing their hands of it, unless it's like their third one or something. 

The practice becoming more common doesn't suddenly render it easy, they likely thought they were going to spend the rest of their lives together at some point and, as a result, have invested a lot into eachother (if it's not a Vegas Honeymoon anyway). 

Liberalism and feminism effectively emancipated women from being trapped in bad marriages. But with the perhaps unintended result that the criticisms of marriages that enabled escape, were never met with serious pro-marriage advocacy...until things started getting ugly. That's what all this trad shit is about; it's the pendulum starting to swing back.

Again, this moreso has me question the institution of marriage as it stands in the modern world. 

A lot of why we hold onto it is a matter of tradition, when perhaps other models could work just as well. To me, it still looks like more of a workforce issue, that it's difficult for it to be done by one person when raising a child is in itself essentially a job. 

The occupations with the highest rates of divorce are: gaming manager (52.9%), bartender (52.7%), flight attendant (50.5%). Lowest rates for: actuary (17%), physical scientist (18.9%), medical scientist (19.6%). I think that information hints that there is a personality/mindset element at play. Doesn't it make sense that people who are in these jobs that are heavily social (and lend themselves to hookups) also correlate to divorce—in a culture where divorce isn't really that frowned upon?

To me it seems more like it's over occupational availability. A bartender for example is going to have a lot more opportunity to cheat or at least consider alternatives when compared to a scientist, even if said bartender's a total melvin. 

All three of those jobs at the top of the divorce rates involve intoxication and/or travel. This is about what they are exposed to as per their environment, the ones at the lower end aren't being stimulated the same. As a matter of mere exposure, you'd begin to see shifts in behavior if the ones at the lower end were to suddenly take up those jobs, similarly to how porn can normalize sex or junk food can normalize obesity. 

And maybe it's not just that marriages become impossible so often, but it could be that people see divorce as an easy way out of a fixable problem. And society—being so pro-divorce and individualistic—encourages people to make that decision and sets the example, when it could be to their own detriment.

While I agree it makes sense for steps to be taken in favor of assisting the child's development, I think that children of divorce, or adoption, can turn out alright if their environment otherwise caters to it. 

Turncoat said:

When divorce is made more common, so too does the potential for second marriages in lieu of a sea of single mothers.

This isn't as good as having both genetic parents, because I think there's stronger attachment & innate understanding there. It's only better than having the single parent.

The genetic parent only has the similarity factor going on, if there's a heritable trait between them then that will be a shared factor when they socialize. 

I don't think this area can really be generalized, as there's obviously a tipping point where the genetic parent being around is worse than them being gone. The question ought to be over where that tipping point is, and how much is or isn't actually lacking from someone being a surrogate for that role. 

How poorly do you figure adopted children turn out? 🤨

I agree that disturbances are probably higher among people who get divorced as a set. But I don't think psychiatric disturbances explain the numbers, as much as they probably account for some fraction.

In general, divorce rates are higher among people with mental illness, and more people are mentally ill now. 

Seems like a potential correlation. 

Turncoat said:

So you'd be fine if we all turned Wiccan for example? That religion's been spreading pretty hard across our lifetimes here in the US, they support heterosexual marriage as a source of empowerment as per their original doctrine, and their 'Threefold Law' karma system as well as other elements in place do a decent job at steering what people do.

Now that's a funny mental image. How is Wicca going to beat out Christianity? I haven't seen it anywhere, maybe it's lurking right beyond my sphere of awareness. Who are these big Wiccans that I don't know about?

It's been picking up speed overtime across our lives, either as Wiccan or Pagan. It's all over the internet and I've been seeing it even pre-dial up. I've known plenty of parents who purchased crystals and taught their children to be Wiccan, and during an age where Harry Potter, Charmed, Buffy, Sabrina, and a ton of comics and books trended in this direction it's not that crazy to see it bearing fruit. 

It also spans counter-culture to Christianity over how The Bible actively demonizes aspects of it, so many have dabbled as a rebellion against it. In an insulated culture like the one we've found ourselves in they've also found a lot of value in words that average roughly around the word "Manifesting" as a form of escapism. Even subjects like Astrology, All Natural, and even Yoga trending further has worked to enable it for some people who'd conflate them as if they were related. 

Turncoat said:

I don't think this area can really be generalized, as there's obviously a tipping point where the genetic parent being around is worse than them being gone. The question ought to be over where that tipping point is, and how much is or isn't actually lacking from someone being a surrogate for that role.

How poorly do you figure adopted children turn out? 🤨

I think it's safe to say in general it's better to have the real father or mother involved. Obviously there are cases where a parent is super fucked up or whatever, but that would be an outlier and not the norm.

I don't assume that adoption is usually bad. But ignoring deviations and edge cases, I don't see how the most optimal scenario is not one of a kid with both of their biological parents, as a rule of thumb. And that actually doesn't have anything to do with how happy the birthdays or holidays are. There are reasons I can imagine why an adoptive household might be more "loving" in the right circusmstances. But there is a certain kind of information you get from learning from some older aspect of your self. And even if not learning from, then simply observing them, and realizing the implications within yourself.

Turncoat said:

It's been picking up speed overtime across our lives, either as Wiccan or Pagan. It's all over the internet and I've been seeing it even pre-dial up. I've known plenty of parents who purchased crystals and taught their children to be Wiccan, and during an age where Harry Potter, Charmed, Buffy, Sabrina, and a ton of comics and books trended in this direction it's not that crazy to see it bearing fruit.

It also spans counter-culture to Christianity over how The Bible actively demonizes aspects of it, so many have dabbled as a rebellion against it. In an insulated culture like the one we've found ourselves in they've also found a lot of value in words that average roughly around the word "Manifesting" as a form of escapism. Even subjects like Astrology, All Natural, and even Yoga trending further has worked to enable it for some people who'd conflate them as if they were related.

How serious are these people about all of this? It sounds a bit like New Age. I remember "The Secret". But I don't think any of our peers are talking about that anymore.

Tryptamine said: 

Turncoat said:

I don't think this area can really be generalized, as there's obviously a tipping point where the genetic parent being around is worse than them being gone. The question ought to be over where that tipping point is, and how much is or isn't actually lacking from someone being a surrogate for that role.

How poorly do you figure adopted children turn out? 🤨

I think it's safe to say in general it's better to have the real father or mother involved. Obviously there are cases where a parent is super fucked up or whatever, but that would be an outlier and not the norm. I don't assume that adoption is usually bad. But ignoring deviations and edge cases, I don't see how the most optimal scenario is not one of a kid with both of their biological parents, as a rule of thumb. 

I wouldn't say that beyond the increased odds of genetic similarities making for a sense of mutual understanding. Even there, things can skip generations which can end up with 'Black Sheep'. Beyond that I don't really see it, those I knew who were adopted often turned out better from being given the tools to succeed. If anything they also turn out humbler and more thankful for the things they have. 

I'd go even further and say that adoption, being as expensive as it is, is going to bring out those who have the means of providing for the child better than whoever chose to dump them on the government's doorstep or whatever private agency they're being put through. Where the child being with his or her original parents could have ended up horribly, the adopted parents rarely are. 

There are reasons I can imagine why an adoptive household might be more "loving" in the right circusmstances.

Go on..? 

But there is a certain kind of information you get from learning from some older aspect of your self. And even if not learning from, then simply observing them, and realizing the implications within yourself.

It serves as a warning and a point of reflection, like if anger management issues for example had a hereditary component. 

That's about it?

Turncoat said:

It's been picking up speed overtime across our lives, either as Wiccan or Pagan. It's all over the internet and I've been seeing it even pre-dial up. I've known plenty of parents who purchased crystals and taught their children to be Wiccan, and during an age where Harry Potter, Charmed, Buffy, Sabrina, and a ton of comics and books trended in this direction it's not that crazy to see it bearing fruit.

It also spans counter-culture to Christianity over how The Bible actively demonizes aspects of it, so many have dabbled as a rebellion against it. In an insulated culture like the one we've found ourselves in they've also found a lot of value in words that average roughly around the word "Manifesting" as a form of escapism. Even subjects like Astrology, All Natural, and even Yoga trending further has worked to enable it for some people who'd conflate them as if they were related.

How serious are these people about all of this? It sounds a bit like New Age.

It varies similarly to Christianity.

How long does something have to be trending to no longer be New Age? I definitely understand the 'New Age' umbrella's vibe, but I feel like the Wiccan/Pagan approach has been around and aged for long enough.