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Posts: 1131
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

And it's unlikely that the way heroin is viewed will change much in our society, beyond the shift from seeing drug abusers purely as criminals, to seeing them as victims of something. A transition which is resulting in sociologically and financially healthy legislation, like the move from prisons to free mandatory rehab.

I'd imagine the view shifting, especially if a media trend pushes it similarly to the Lean craze of a few years back. 

It'd just take one hype movement, one set of strong memes, to get people hooked on Smack. People are stupid, they don't typically know better when the default is closer to "I'd try anything once" within the framework of willful ignorance, and unlike most mistakes it only takes making it once to ruin everything. 

We just need a popular enough rapper to promote it.

Sadly, I don't disagree with you.  However by this very logic, I think what we need to beat it is not mass imprisonment, it's a more effective propaganda campaign.

 

In many fashions the pros outweigh the cons, but the class of a drug isn't something we should ignore.

In a general sense, yes.  But in this particular case, the question is one of distribution patterns, not individual effect. 

That's the thing: It wouldn't take much distribution in the first place to turn people. A small increase is a big increase, proportionally so based on how addictive it is and how strong it is.

I do see what you're saying, but do you agree that rehab at least has a better chance of helping people escape it than prison?  Because that's what we're dealing with, with decriminalization.  It's a method of assistance over punishment, specifically a punishment that makes it harder for them to reintegrate functionally and remain drug-free.  Not to mention elevating the functionality of the entire communities at the heart of this problem.  Do you think that when weighed against eachother, that wouldn't have a stronger effect overall?

 

Spending billions on an endless war still fails. It never ends. 

It's a matter of harm reduction as opposed to something that binary. You don't win or lose versus drugs, you just reduce it's impacts sociologically. 

He makes a fair point though.  We've been hammering away at this pandemic for ages with brute force and wasted money.  It's very simply not working

The pandemic situation is more a matter of how it's being handled as opposed to the effort of trying to handle it at all.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  And how have we been handling it?  Locking people up.

 

As for drugs, we've otherwise managed to keep heavier substances out of a surprising number of people's hands through having other, lesser drugs be easier to access than the heavier stuff. Through having a series of fenceposts between each drug, you create a path more likely to be taken that's more likely to end somewhere safer (gateway drugs).

Through having increased risk for harder drugs, these paths form more naturally than what we'd otherwise see if all substances were treated equally.

They're not being treated equally though.  While meth and heroin were decriminalized, others were outright legalized and are in the process of being opened to commercial sale.  Just as we've seen patterns of improvement in weed legal states, when someone can safely and conveniently buy things like psychedelics from a regulated seller, it will decrease the need to escalate.

 

But it's not about the risk level of the drug, the real question is whether or not decriminalization significantly increases access. 

Carrying a single dose of heroin is enough to use it as a weapon, and once their hooked they become a new source for it to spread towards others. 

With other drugs, a single dose is typically just enough to have a good time, but this deserves it's own tier of treatment. It's more like a disease that piggybacks social climate than a substance that just alters your perceptions a bit.

 If criminalization is actually a solution, when exactly is it going to start working? : P

As a matter of harm reduction, it's working more now than it could be projected to if it's in more people's hands. 

10 doses is enough to make 10 addicts, most drugs don't work that way.

But again, this argument relies on the assumption that those with access currently who aren't using, are only or mostly being held back by a fear of prison.

 
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0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

In 2001, Portugal decriminalized the possession of illegal drugs for personal use and moved towards viewing addiction as a mental health problem that is treatable versus a moral failing. The idea was to move addiction out of the shadows and make it more 'socially acceptable'. 

The result is that Portugal’s drug situation has improved significantly in several key areas. Most notably, HIV infections and drug-related deaths have decreased, while the dramatic rise in use feared by some has failed to materialise. However, such improvements are not solely the result of the decriminalisation policy; Portugal’s shift towards a more health-centred approach to drugs, as well as wider health and social policy changes, are equally, if not more, responsible for the positive changes observed.

Locking users up forces people underground, breaks up families, and increases the cycle of using and associated crimes up. But, as long as prisons are run as for-profit businesses there's an incentive to maintain the status quo and sell the bad-person narrative.

I Took The Liberty Of Fertilizing Your Caviar.
Posts: 33591
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

Decriminalization and rehab practices are great, in general, especially when compared to the alternative of prison negligence followed by a criminal record that makes it harder to work, but continuing to be a hard ass about Heroin is a more effective measure when this drug essentially has rehab resistance as quick to come into effect as trying it one time. 

"Prevention is the best cure" in this case, as otherwise rehab clinics are bound to see an increase in helpless heroin victims that will never leave. We can't just sit here and expect rehab to fix that heavy of a substance, especially when it's such a one-and-done life ruining poison that doesn't even need self-administering to do it's lasting damages. 

So yeah, while propaganda's the more likely approach to actually shift anything around here, any semblance of appearing lax about it would increase it's likelihood of spreading. How strict laws are does have a passive effect on people pre-application of a drug, and while other measures would need to be taken to decrease the odds of it's popularity we also are stuck dealing with the system as it stands now, alongside how changing it would affect people in both the short and long term. 

Drugs are a sticky situation to try to handle over how there isn't a simple solution for it, but rather time consuming ones that may not show the full impact of it's efforts for a decade. When it comes to how people are governed, I'd argue that the appearance of laws has more of an effect on people than the punishments for breaking those laws themselves. While barbaric, there is something to the promise of losing a hand if you steal things, an example it sets for the rest of "the tribe". 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
last edit on 11/5/2020 4:59:44 AM
Posts: 1131
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

Decriminalization and rehab practices are great, in general, especially when compared to the alternative of prison negligence followed by a criminal record that makes it harder to work, but continuing to be a hard ass about Heroin is a more effective measure when this drug essentially has rehab resistance as quick to come into effect as trying it one time. 

"Prevention is the best cure" in this case, as otherwise rehab clinics are bound to see an increase in helpless heroin victims that will never leave. We can't just sit here and expect rehab to fix that heavy of a substance, especially when it's such a one-and-done life ruining poison that doesn't even need self-administering to do it's lasting damages. 

So yeah, while propaganda's the more likely approach to actually shift anything around here, any semblance of appearing lax about it would increase it's likelihood of spreading. How strict laws are does have a passive effect on people pre-application of a drug, and while other measures would need to be taken to decrease the odds of it's popularity we also are stuck dealing with the system as it stands now, alongside how changing it would affect people in both the short and long term. 

Drugs are a sticky situation to try to handle over how there isn't a simple solution for it, but rather time consuming ones that may not show the full impact of it's efforts for a decade. When it comes to how people are governed, I'd argue that the appearance of laws has more of an effect on people than the punishments for breaking those laws themselves. While barbaric, there is something to the promise of losing a hand if you steal things, an example it sets for the rest of "the tribe". 

Prevention is the best cure, but you're acting like anyone who's tried heroin once is automatically a lost cause, to the point that a system of punishment that perpetuates their drug use is favorable, or at least a net neutral.

Posts: 33591
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

Decriminalization and rehab practices are great, in general, especially when compared to the alternative of prison negligence followed by a criminal record that makes it harder to work, but continuing to be a hard ass about Heroin is a more effective measure when this drug essentially has rehab resistance as quick to come into effect as trying it one time. 

"Prevention is the best cure" in this case, as otherwise rehab clinics are bound to see an increase in helpless heroin victims that will never leave. We can't just sit here and expect rehab to fix that heavy of a substance, especially when it's such a one-and-done life ruining poison that doesn't even need self-administering to do it's lasting damages. 

So yeah, while propaganda's the more likely approach to actually shift anything around here, any semblance of appearing lax about it would increase it's likelihood of spreading. How strict laws are does have a passive effect on people pre-application of a drug, and while other measures would need to be taken to decrease the odds of it's popularity we also are stuck dealing with the system as it stands now, alongside how changing it would affect people in both the short and long term. 

Drugs are a sticky situation to try to handle over how there isn't a simple solution for it, but rather time consuming ones that may not show the full impact of it's efforts for a decade. When it comes to how people are governed, I'd argue that the appearance of laws has more of an effect on people than the punishments for breaking those laws themselves. While barbaric, there is something to the promise of losing a hand if you steal things, an example it sets for the rest of "the tribe". 

Prevention is the best cure, but you're acting like anyone who's tried heroin once is automatically a lost cause

The majority of the time they honestly are. If they're forced to hide from society, that makes society all the more safer from it. 

to the point that a system of punishment that perpetuates their drug use is favorable, or at least a net neutral.

Yes, I don't care if they keep using, I care if they succeed at getting others to. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 1131
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

Decriminalization and rehab practices are great, in general, especially when compared to the alternative of prison negligence followed by a criminal record that makes it harder to work, but continuing to be a hard ass about Heroin is a more effective measure when this drug essentially has rehab resistance as quick to come into effect as trying it one time. 

"Prevention is the best cure" in this case, as otherwise rehab clinics are bound to see an increase in helpless heroin victims that will never leave. We can't just sit here and expect rehab to fix that heavy of a substance, especially when it's such a one-and-done life ruining poison that doesn't even need self-administering to do it's lasting damages. 

So yeah, while propaganda's the more likely approach to actually shift anything around here, any semblance of appearing lax about it would increase it's likelihood of spreading. How strict laws are does have a passive effect on people pre-application of a drug, and while other measures would need to be taken to decrease the odds of it's popularity we also are stuck dealing with the system as it stands now, alongside how changing it would affect people in both the short and long term. 

Drugs are a sticky situation to try to handle over how there isn't a simple solution for it, but rather time consuming ones that may not show the full impact of it's efforts for a decade. When it comes to how people are governed, I'd argue that the appearance of laws has more of an effect on people than the punishments for breaking those laws themselves. While barbaric, there is something to the promise of losing a hand if you steal things, an example it sets for the rest of "the tribe". 

Prevention is the best cure, but you're acting like anyone who's tried heroin once is automatically a lost cause

The majority of the time they honestly are. If they're forced to hide from society, that makes society all the more safer from it.

They are the majority of the time in part because they're being reinforced instead of helped.

 

to the point that a system of punishment that perpetuates their drug use is favorable, or at least a net neutral.

Yes, I don't care if they keep using, I care if they succeed at getting others to. 

 Then you care about the dealers.  I mean, what percentage increase in heroin use are you even expecting just from removing the fear of prison for possession of small, personal use amounts?

Posts: 33591
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

Decriminalization and rehab practices are great, in general, especially when compared to the alternative of prison negligence followed by a criminal record that makes it harder to work, but continuing to be a hard ass about Heroin is a more effective measure when this drug essentially has rehab resistance as quick to come into effect as trying it one time. 

"Prevention is the best cure" in this case, as otherwise rehab clinics are bound to see an increase in helpless heroin victims that will never leave. We can't just sit here and expect rehab to fix that heavy of a substance, especially when it's such a one-and-done life ruining poison that doesn't even need self-administering to do it's lasting damages. 

So yeah, while propaganda's the more likely approach to actually shift anything around here, any semblance of appearing lax about it would increase it's likelihood of spreading. How strict laws are does have a passive effect on people pre-application of a drug, and while other measures would need to be taken to decrease the odds of it's popularity we also are stuck dealing with the system as it stands now, alongside how changing it would affect people in both the short and long term. 

Drugs are a sticky situation to try to handle over how there isn't a simple solution for it, but rather time consuming ones that may not show the full impact of it's efforts for a decade. When it comes to how people are governed, I'd argue that the appearance of laws has more of an effect on people than the punishments for breaking those laws themselves. While barbaric, there is something to the promise of losing a hand if you steal things, an example it sets for the rest of "the tribe". 

Prevention is the best cure, but you're acting like anyone who's tried heroin once is automatically a lost cause

The majority of the time they honestly are. If they're forced to hide from society, that makes society all the more safer from it.

They are the majority of the time in part because they're being reinforced instead of helped.

Typically, yes, but Heroin's a beast of it's own. 

It hijacks the love centers and drives people to do crazy things, and the withdrawal is something beastly. The only drugs like it are comparable to Morphine

to the point that a system of punishment that perpetuates their drug use is favorable, or at least a net neutral.

Yes, I don't care if they keep using, I care if they succeed at getting others to. 

Then you care about the dealers.  I mean, what percentage increase in heroin use are you even expecting just from removing the fear of prison for possession of small, personal use amounts?

Normally, yes, but when it only takes one time trying it it's about more than the dealers. 

Majority of people I've known for their first time on any drug have gotten it from a friend, not a dealer. 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 2479
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

Idek how anyone can think this is a bad thing. The thing with mushrooms being legal there though is really weird though. From my understanding they’re going to end up paying people to watch users masturbate and cry in a small room or something for 4 hours after selling them the mushrooms.

Posts: 33591
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

Wait... 

Fox News said:
Only small amounts of drugs are decriminalized, such as less than 1 gram of heroin or MDMA; 2 grams of cocaine or methamphetamine; 12 grams of psilocybin mushrooms; and 40 doses of LSD, oxycodone or methadone.

How many mics are in a legal 'dose' of LSD? 

Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Posts: 2479
0 votes RE: Oregon decriminalizes h...

Wait... 

Fox News said:
Only small amounts of drugs are decriminalized, such as less than 1 gram of heroin or MDMA; 2 grams of cocaine or methamphetamine; 12 grams of psilocybin mushrooms; and 40 doses of LSD, oxycodone or methadone.

How many mics are in a legal 'dose' of LSD? 

 I want to say 100, but idek if they take mics into account.

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