Foreigners aren't allowed to speak on our political matters.
Nah, we still have free speech in the north. Our govt doesn't tear gas us. XD
I Took The Liberty Of Fertilizing Your Caviar.
Foreigners aren't allowed to speak on our political matters.
Nah, we still have free speech in the north. Our govt doesn't tear gas us. XD
https://thefederalist.com/2018/06/28/canadian-bus-driver-arrested-two-years-later-criticizing-homosexuality/
Yes, I'm sure Canada has PERFECT free speech
My grandiose delusions are better than yours.
Martyrdom can be stronger than a tyrant.
True, but is choosing to commit suicide really Martydom? A martyr is someone who dies a victim, or as a consequence of fighting for what they believe in. Setting yourself on fire isn't a consequence- it is just a method of shock value.
If a monk choose to drink poison and die alone as a form of protest would this count as martyrdom?
Sc is pretty boring.
Martyrdom can be stronger than a tyrant.True, but is choosing to commit suicide really Martydom?
It can be yes, depending on how it's framed.
Fight Club plays with this idea.
A martyr is someone who dies a victim, or as a consequence of fighting for what they believe in.
Yes, and the self-immolating monk qualifies. Who are you to say this isn't a victim dying for what they believe in?
Setting yourself on fire isn't a consequence- it is just a method of shock value.
Try telling that to someone with the balls to do it.
Shock value also can be of consequence, much more than it's alternative anyway. It's about budging people, spurring action.
If a monk choose to drink poison and die alone as a form of protest would this count as martyrdom?
Depending on how it's framed. The person may be dead, but the idea still yet lives.
A martyr to me is as successful as their ability to be the topic of conversation. It's what makes George Floyd into an unintended martyr of convenience.
Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
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6/19/2020 5:37:01 AM
Fantastic example. The narrator isn't comitting suicide for the purpose of drawing attention to himself, he is sacrificing himself because it is the only way to harm his enemy- who lives inside his head.
A martyr is someone who dies a victim, or as a consequence of fighting for what they believe in.
Yes, and the self-immolating monk qualifies. Who are you to say this isn't a victim dying for what they believe in?
Let me rephrase, a martyr isn't given a choice. Death is brought upon them by external forces. A martyr either A) cannot escape death or B) has the option to escape only by turning on what they believe. In the case of fight club that "external force" is a situation outside of his control. The situation is that Tyler Durden is in his head. The narrator is faced with the decision to die (so he thinks) or succumb to evil he cannot defeat.
Polycarp is another example of a martyr who was given a choice to renounce his beliefs in return for his life, and refused.
Anne Frank is a martyr because her death brought so much attention to the horrors of the holocaust which american's greatly ignored for decades after WWII. She never had a choice, her very existance was the reason she was killed by forces outside of her control.
The monk had endless options and no person or situation forcing him to choose death. He could have been equally, or even more successful at bringing attention to his cause by acting on the principles he stood for. By choosing to commit suicide he drew attention away from his cause at towards himself. Case and point- We are discussing the monk in the video setting himself on fire and IDK what he was even protesting. The drawing of attention to himself is selfish, a trait which martyrs lack when they sacrifice themselves.
Setting yourself on fire isn't a consequence- it is just a method of shock value.Try telling that to someone with the balls to do it.
I will if I get the chance.
If a monk choose to drink poison and die alone as a form of protest would this count as martyrdom?Depending on how it's framed.
How would you frame this as a martyr?
A martyr to me is as successful as their ability to be the topic of conversation.
So anyone who dies ever is a martyr as long as someone talks about them? Regardless of if anyone ever knows what principles they stood for, and whether their death impacted the cause in any way, just being dead and talked about qualifies as martyrdom? If that is the case that what is the point of having a word for martyrdom, it doesn't mean anything anymore since every single living thing will be a martyr one day, completely forgotten, and likely having very little impact on the world.
Edit: I see you edited your comment and this is the only addition I feel compelled to address:
Turncoat said:It's what makes George Floyd into an unintended martyr of convenience.
George Floyd is a martyr because he did not have a choice. He was murdered in broad daylight while handcuffed. His death didn't just make himself a topic of conversation, it brought attention to the larger problem at hand. Making a specticle of yourself by method that brings more attention to yourself as a person than the issue is less equivilent to martyrdom, and more like self-destructive behavior triggered by something traumatic. Is a middle aged man who decides to start doing coke and gets a face tattoo bc he is having a midlife crisis a martyr?
Sc is pretty boring.
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6/19/2020 6:07:08 AM
Martyrs aren't heroes, they're dead poets.
Chester Bennington was a martyr for emo.
Sc is pretty boring.
Fantastic example. The narrator isn't comitting suicide for the purpose of drawing attention to himself, he is sacrificing himself because it is the only way to harm his enemy- who lives inside his head.
His enemy is himself and it's an expression of his own self loathing in a battle versus his Ego and Id (with Marla as the Superego).
He is a Martyr of Project Mayhem, and aimed to be dead to be the Jesus of a Credit Cardless Utopia he'd not live to see (in the movie anyway, in the book it's a Philosophical rant against History as a concept), all because he's inherently suicidal and wants it to mean something.
It goes so, so much deeper than just "I have a demon shaped tumor inside of my head", it's an Existential Crisis to the utmost self-fucked that goes into near-God Complex delusions as more people validate and emulate his idealistic persona's mindset as a reinforcement mechanic. As he sees that he won't be able to be a "Rockstar" forever, he plans his own death, his own martyrdom, and wow is it thought out instead of merely incidental.
FFS, the narrator is Tyler Durden. Trying to kill him is literally him trying to kill his sense of identity's maddening contradiction between his rebellion against permanence and his insistence on having been important enough to be remembered.
A martyr is someone who dies a victim, or as a consequence of fighting for what they believe in.
Yes, and the self-immolating monk qualifies. Who are you to say this isn't a victim dying for what they believe in?
Let me rephrase, a martyr isn't given a choice.
Was Jesus not a martyr?
The monk had endless options and no person or situation forcing him to choose death.
Perhaps the direction that his beliefs twisted him made it apply as option B.
He could have been equally, or even more successful at bringing attention to his cause by acting on the principles he stood for. By choosing to commit suicide he drew attention away from his cause at towards himself.
I'd say otherwise, it's even drawing our discussion towards that cause right now as we speak.
Ideas are everything.
Case and point- We are discussing the monk in the video setting himself on fire and IDK what he was even protesting. The drawing of attention to himself is selfish, a trait which martyrs lack when they sacrifice themselves.
That just proves your own ignorance, a privilege you possess from not living in or around Vietnam and otherwise being related to the issue.
You don't see me relating to every issue that's presented to me, but it definitely further inspires a reason to look into it and maybe even get normies involved.
Setting yourself on fire isn't a consequence- it is just a method of shock value.Try telling that to someone with the balls to do it.
I will if I get the chance. As you said
Just saying like, I could see them having a really well thought out rant if they're at that point of derealization.
If a monk choose to drink poison and die alone as a form of protest would this count as martyrdom?Depending on how it's framed.
How would you frame this as a martyr?
Imagine if that 'monk' were a celebrity of some sort?
A martyr to me is as successful as their ability to be the topic of conversation.
So anyone who dies ever is a martyr as long as someone talks about them?
No, they have to die as some sort of sacrificial lamb towards the conversation.
See Robert Paulson.
Regardless of if anyone ever knows what principles they stood for, and whether their death impacted the cause in any way, just being dead and talked about qualifies as martyrdom? If that is the case that what is the point of having a word for martyrdom, it doesn't mean anything anymore since every single living thing will be a martyr one day, completely forgotten, and likely having very little impact on the world.
That's like saying there's no reason for the word "artist", "diva", or "celebrity" in that it denounces a means of getting attention.
No one wants to think they died just screaming into a dark cave, they want their lives to have meant something. A martyr meanwhile turns that sentiment into a vicarious contagion that spits out idols that didn't live long enough to fall (the Harvey Dent nonsense).
Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
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6/19/2020 6:50:18 AM
Ę̵̚x̸͎̾i̴͚̽s̵̻͐t̷͐ͅe̷̯͠n̴̤̚t̵̻̅i̵͉̿a̴̮͊l̵͍̂ ̴̹̕D̵̤̀e̸͓͂t̵̢͂e̴͕̓c̸̗̄t̴̗̿ï̶̪v̷̲̍é̵͔
Fantastic example. The narrator isn't comitting suicide for the purpose of drawing attention to himself, he is sacrificing himself because it is the only way to harm his enemy- who lives inside his head.
His enemy is himself and it's an expression of his own self loathing in a battle versus his Ego and Id (with Marla as the Superego).
He is a Martyr of Project Mayhem, and aimed to be dead to be the Jesus of a Credit Cardless Utopia he'd not live to see, all because he's inherently suicidal and wants it to mean something.
It goes so, so much deeper than just "I have a demon shaped tumor inside of my head", it's an Existential Crisis to the utmost self-fucked that goes into near-God Complex delusions as more people validate and emulate his idealistic persona's mindset as a reinforcement mechanic.
FFS, the narrator is Tyler Durden. Trying to kill him is literally him trying to kill his sense of identity's rebellion against permanence.
I'll need to read the book. Although the narrator- Tyler struggle is clearly representative of his internal struggle, the movie paints the final scenes as a situation where literal multiple identities want different things more than as a metaphor for one conciousness that struggles with what he wants.
A martyr is someone who dies a victim, or as a consequence of fighting for what they believe in.
Yes, and the self-immolating monk qualifies. Who are you to say this isn't a victim dying for what they believe in?
Let me rephrase, a martyr isn't given a choice.
Was Jesus not a martyr?
I covered this in the rest of the paragraph which you deleted here. "Death is brought upon them by external forces. A martyr either A) cannot escape death or B) has the option to escape only by turning on what they believe.
Polycarp is another example of a martyr who was given a choice to renounce his beliefs in return for his life, and refused."
The monk had endless options and no person or situation forcing him to choose death.
Perhaps the direction that his beliefs twisted him made it apply as option B.
Nobody brought death upon him, coming to conclusion "death is the only answer" when no one else pressured him to die is mental illness.
He could have been equally, or even more successful at bringing attention to his cause by acting on the principles he stood for. By choosing to commit suicide he drew attention away from his cause at towards himself.
I'd say otherwise, it's even drawing our discussion towards that cause right now as we speak.
Ideas are everything.Case and point- We are discussing the monk in the video setting himself on fire and IDK what he was even protesting. The drawing of attention to himself is selfish, a trait which martyrs lack when they sacrifice themselves.
That just proves your own ignorance, a privilege you possess from not living in or around Vietnam and otherwise being related to the issue.
So he failed to bring attention to the issue from anyone except the people who are already addressing the issue, and that is somehow my fault because I hadn't already heard of the thing he was bringing attention to, before he did such a bang-up job of bring attention to himself instead of said issue.
You don't see me relating to every issue that's presented to me, but it definitely further inspires a reason to look into it and maybe even get normies involved.
Setting yourself on fire isn't a consequence- it is just a method of shock value.Try telling that to someone with the balls to do it.
I will if I get the chance. As you said
Just saying like, I could see them having a really well thought out rant if they're at that point of derealization.
I'd love to hear it, but until then you aren't doing a very good job of convincing me that suicide is martyrdom.
If a monk choose to drink poison and die alone as a form of protest would this count as martyrdom?Depending on how it's framed.
How would you frame this as a martyr?
Imagine if that 'monk' were a celebrity of some sort?
In this case I could see the monk becoming a sudo-religious figure of sorts, like Ghandi. The monk in the video is not famous however. The most attention he every received was about the fact he publically killed himself- which once again brings attention away from his cause and instead to himself.
post 1/2
Edit: Just typos, nothing added.
Sc is pretty boring.
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6/19/2020 7:30:44 AM